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Re: (TFT) Some Thoughts on HTH
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----- Original Message -----
From: <raito@raito.com>
To: <tft@brainiac.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: (TFT) Some Thoughts on HTH
circumstances. If both are trained...yikes. I'm interested in your fight.
Was it stand up or on the ground? I take it you're trained in some
martial
art.
If both are trained, then either one loses the poker hand and it's over
right
now, or it takes a long time. As for my experiences, they're from standing
positions. The medieval masters were right on that -- never choose to go
to the
ground in a real fight. And yes, I have training.
That's why I made the original comment about the deadliness of knife
fighting. In TFT HTH is on the ground so there's not much parrying or
footwork.
initial stage of mobilization. On successive turns, the grappler could
inflict his HTH damage based on strength with no armor, magical or
otherwise, protection. If has has an arm and does the requisite damage,
then
the guy loses the use of his arm per the aimed shot rules. This should be
a
higher UC skill.
But the aimed shot rules shouldn't have to apply.
I didn't mean that the -dx adjustment would apply but was suggesting that a
way to replicate the sort of damage a grappler could do would be to allow
for the disabling of limbs, chokes, etc... something akin to what we see in
the aimed shot rules.
Good question about regular weapon Talents. It's possible that, apart
from
knives, sticks, and the like, they would have very little effect once in
HTH. They could play a part at the time entry into HTH is attempted.
After I
sent my post, I wondered to myself why a weapon talent wouldn't play a
part
in either entering HTH or refusing HTH. Not sure. For entering HTH, you
might feignt with the weapon or attack the opponent's weapon to create an
opening. For refusing HTH, you are pretty much taking a swipe at the
enemy
as he approaches.
Fiore de Liberi would disagree, and say that to even be competent with the
sword, one has to be able to grapple with it.
Would you elaborate? What does grapple mean in this instance?
Very true, but still there's still significant training. One thing
Bushido
But what constitutes 'significant' training? UC? Weapons Talents?
In a game context, it would be a UC talent. The higher the UC talent, the
greater the skill. As for including a weapon skill in this calculus, I don't
know what could be done because the weapon talents don't mirror the UC
talents, ie 1, 2, 3, etc... Under the current rules, an unarmed man would
attempt HTH under limited circumstances and would roll a die to see where he
ends up. If he or the opponent has UC, then they could adjust the roll under
my house rule. A result of 5 or 6 puts the HTH attacker in a vulnerable
position. Is this enough risk to thwart risky attempts to grapple against an
armed opponent? I think Legends lets the defender attack with a ready weapon
if he hasn't yet acted. This is another option that's reasonable. The way
TFT is written isn't unreasonable. I don't think HTH is attempted all that
often. Usually there are multiple attackers and jumping into HTH with one is
very dangerous since you're exposing yourself. Any ideas? Mirror weapons
skills: sword 1, 2, 3, etc...?
Are you talking about breaking an arm through the armor or attacking the
joint through rending or striking? Is this striking damage or rending
I'm talking about breaking it through manipulation, not striking. Really,
striking against significant armour just doesn't work. Read the medieval
masters. Armoured sword contests in the early 1500's are considred
wrestling
matches, not sword fights. In fact, there's some ranting against rich
young men who never learn to parry, because their armour protects them to
that degree. My experiences tend to bear this out as true.
That said, armour providing protection as it does in TFT is a game
mechanic, not tied to reality. So while discussing reality is nice, it
must be translates into game mechanics that work. Usually, that means
sacrificing reality.
Agreed. I'm not suggesting that we make TFT HTH super complex. The only
adjustment we ever made was allowing for modification of the initial HTH
combat roll based upon the difference of the respective parties' UC talents.
If UC 2 attacks UC 5, the defender gets to modify the HTH die roll by 3
whichever direction he wants. In TFT, your initial black belt might be UC2
or UC3. An untrained person attacking either of these guys would be at a
significant disadvantage if trying to initiate HTH combat. If HTH combat is
merely ground grappling, your smarter UC guy isn't going to try it but avoid
it unless he's outmatched (armor/weapons), in which case he might be able to
subdue the opponent via grappling. He'll normally use his UC talents on his
feet; there's no requirement to enter HTH to use these skills. I would like
to see grapplers be able to do some damage and a few more UC talents.
Although curious, I've never purchased GURPS martial arts book. I wonder
what was done to distinguish styles.
It's interesting that you say that 16th century sword contests were
described as wrestling matches. Is this the "grappling" you referred to
above? I agree about the use of armor. Armor allows you to take chances that
you otherwise wouldn't take and perhaps creates bad habits from the point of
view of weapon skill and tactics. Just look at stickfighters who have fought
for years with armor and then try it without- they find that they were
taking chances and relying on armor protection and not skill with the stick
or footwork. This is okay if you always or usually have armor but not okay
if it distorts the development of skill such that you commit deadly errors
when not wearing armor. Also, if they're fighting with sticks, the worst
they can usually get is broken bones or a concussion, if using blades, they
may lose life or permanent use of limb. I know they've done death matches
with sticks in the Phillipines but those were designed to be such and no
armor was worn.
admit, while I have struck pads, wood, etc...I've never hit medieval
metal
armor. I think that it would take considerable skill IN A FIGHTING
SITUATION
to strike such heavy metal armor and transfer enough power to damage the
person without harming their hand.
Gauntlets protect more than you might think. Unlike most, I have struck
armour
with weapons, and without. Yes, I wouldn't cause much damage at all
striking
someone in armour with my hand. But I wouldn't bother to do so in order to
do
damage.
I don't know. Sparring with modern light training gear is different from
sparring without it. IIRC, aikijutsu was used by armored samurai, perhaps
I believe that kumiuchi was the term applied specifically to grappling in
armour.
sometimes in conjunction with a tanto. I don't think they tried to punch
through armor of their opponent but used aiki to take down the enemy, rip
joints and maybe finish him off with the tanto. So there is some truth to
what you say. Maybe you're right, let the -dx adjustment take care of the
decision to wear or not wear armor.
There's also several accounts of samurai holding their opponent down with
one
hand, and beheading them with the other.
Another option after a pin would be something like this. Instead of just
pinning, the character could attempt to draw a dagger, if necessary, and
then make some attempt to slay the opponent or force a surrender. Failure
would/could result in a loss of the pin.
Aidan
Neil Gilmore
raito@raito.com
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