Re: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V4 #348

["Edward Kroeten" <ekroeten@farmersagent.com>]

Neil,



 First point on training again from modern day George Patton revised the sword
tactic and maneuvers in 1903(? have it in the stacks but I am not going to dig
it out) writing a whole new manual.  This included things like leaning
completely backwards to make a thrust to your rear, a charge with point,
various parries that require pretty good skill to conduct.  He was able to
bring people up to speed within 6 weeks, because they followed a program, much
like the program a knight or man at arms followed.  I would also submit from
the primary evidence that most knights were ok not great fighters.   To say
that the IJA is a second job or a wash is fine but I find it impossible to
believe it take them several years to learn how to stay astride a horse in a
joust.  I also imagine some if not many of them are also much better than the
average knight from the middle ages.  What I am saying and almost every
account backs me up is that a fine archer takes longer to develop than a fine
man at arms.



 To your second point of it taking so long to develop again see George Patton,
also guys who are good riders learning to fight now, I would have to suggest
that the training and experience would be a bit different.  In the Middle ages
there were many experienced fighting men who made their living training, now
there just aren't that many.  Would a modern day fighter win a battle? Maybe,
but the wealth of experience and the ease of training with experience trainers
more readily available you would be hard pressed to say that they wouldn't be
ready faster.  Maybe an example here will show my point, some of my buddies
are hunters they hunt every year and are good shots it has taken them a long
time to get really good.  Most worked with their dad or a friend,   A few
might even be to sniper level, now in the Army you go through boot and if you
show promise you can go to sniper school if you go through that program again
much less than year you come out a marksman.  Sort of the amateurs against the
professionals sort of thing.



 Third point I got that what you were saying but again physical evidence shows
that archers had overdeveloped muscles from pulling a bow so often.  The fact
that the range had to be a minimum of 220 yards puts a little more light on
the subject.  The simple fact was that English archers were simply empirically
better than other archers because they practice more.  The same was true of
English ships because they practiced using gunpowder, and 1800s English foot
soldiers were generally superior to their opponents because they fired live
ammo unlike most other nations.



 Nothing I am saying is earth shattering more practice equals better
preparedness.



   Edward Kroeten
     Farmers Agent
     39899 Balentine Drive Suite 200
     Newark, CA 94560
     Phone 510-579-0135
     Fax 510-438-6875
     Website: www.kroeteninsurance.com













 ------ Original Message ------
   Received: 07:57 AM PDT, 08/29/2013
   From: raito@raito.com
   To: tft@brainiac.com
   Subject: Re: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V4 #348




     > Neil Gilmore,
       >
       >
       >
       > Maybe I was not being clear so let me try again.

       You're being quite clear. And while I may agree with many of your
factual
       points, I just disagree with some of your conclusions.

       > At man at arms only had his job so he could and would spend most
everyday
       > learning it, unlike a SCA or IJA person who can put in a weekend or
a
       > couple

       That's again a rather broad generalization, especially for the IJA
guys.
       Every one of them that I know of is a professional horse person.
They're
       in the saddle hours a day. Sure, they do more of the grunt work than
their
       medieval counterparts (they tend to have fewer grooms, for example),
but
       their medieval counterparts also spent a lot of time dealing with
their
       rank, which was their business. I'd say that was a wash. The point is
that
       the IJA guys are about as professional a bunch of riders as you'll
find
       anywhere.

       As for the average SCA guy, sure. But the exceptional ones spend a lot
       more time than you allude to. When I was doing my most intensive
training,
       it was as much as having a second job. Even now, I can cite a lot of
guys
       who are in their armour for a few hours every day. And accounts of the
       period (which is my generalization, seeing as we're discussing a few
       hundred years) appear to show that the armoured nobles of the time
didn't
       spend all day every day in armour either. And the point there is that
the
       top SCA guys are spending probably as much time in their armour as
their
       medieval counterparts.

       > of weeks here and there. Six months of train would have been plenty
for
       > Lord
       > or knight as they already could ride well learning the nuances of
the
       > lance
       > and sword from horseback is what they would be training at. So this
is
       > very
       > much a professional soldier who spent his life in his craft anyone
rich
       > enough
       > to own a horse and a suit of armor was of a higher class than an
archer.

       And here we disagree. The guys I know who do horseback combat who were
       already good riders took a lot more than 6 months to be any good. Which
is
       rather another point, isn't it? I think we'd agree that not all
medieval
       knights were stone killers. Some were probably pretty bad, and a very
few
       really, really, good.

       I'd say that the same was true for archers.

       > Next to you point of hitting a 10' area at 100 yards English archers
were
       > picking out individual targets man or horse at that range and
dropping
       > them.

       I see that I've been the one who is unclear here. My assertion that
with a
       day's training I could hit 10' at 100 yards was meant as a data point
for
       training. If I'd trained every day for a year I'm pretty sure I'd
improve.
       :)

       Neil Gilmore
       raito@raito.com
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