Re: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V4 #463

[Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>]

http://annarchive.com/files/Drmg038.pdf
?

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ringside... that's a title that escaped Me... Avalon Hill?
> I have focused on athletics as a additional set of Actions that give
> Hero's options to spend fST for enhanced effect in balance to straight
> spells. fST fits the mechanic typically occupied by HP "damage" much
> better I find and actually models actual conflict much better at least
> from My limited experience as the hurt generally results from being to
> fatigued to offer effective resistance baring lucky blows etc. with
> effects like bleeding amplifying this idea in practice at least to
> hear the purpose of knife combat presented in My way back days of
> infantry training where one is either trying for a stab to the
> internals or a slash structurally severing a major muscle group
> mechanically mucking up function and bleeding resulting in mainly
> fatigue although slippery grip/footing and similar may also play parts
> but bleeding would usually not be considered a goal directly as the
> period of time required is considerable in combat consideration where
> a minute can be forever in practice and with ST given as 1 pt = 5.5
> foot pounds of force I find what isn't mitigated can be applied to
> describe straight injuries rather than abstract HP's that in effect
> are serving in a similar picture without the clearer conception that
> allows spending fatigue for greater effect gambles where pushing ones
> luck may be the only shot to win a race or similar contest where the
> opposition has training or a significant advantage that otherwise
> would for all intents and purposes leave no question as to the
> outcome. One of My gripes I've sought to address in the addition of
> constructive elements added to what generally can be a destructive
> model as the only means of "character" advancement problem is the fact
> that many RPG's allow swinging swords to slay "monsters" without
> allowing swinging bats to hit balls which points to the problem of
> destructive focus as the only option offered which I'm not saying
> isn't valid but I am saying isn't a requirement either for a
> successful "game" experience. It's just the model that marketed the
> most profits returned when totalitarian business brought out the hobby
> and froze further development in favor of pushing the model still used
> today in My personal impression. I find it disturbing when the
> expectations of the community become so turned around that the release
> of a next edition ruleset totally reworked for marketing sales with no
> pretense whatsoever at improving existing mechanics isn't even
> questioned for the obvious exploitation of the community it
> demonstrates with each baby thrown out with the bathwater it service
> of a bigger bottom line and the community accepts such as that's fine.
> That's a paramount obstruction blocking the development of the
> tabletop mediums potential which never managed to finish it's initial
> conception of cutting individuals out of the Unit herd as evidenced by
> "human MA 10" for example which is much more of a miniatures modal
> than an expression of individuality. If I'm on the right track in
> advocating that it's Player participation in the creation of the
> elements added through the act of Play that amount to the story or
> plot normally experienced passively as a finished work in other
> storytelling mediums that bar participation in the creation of the
> works final form is a huge failure to play to the strengths of the
> medium in design instead trying to mimic another mediums strengths to
> meh effect. In FPS video like Boarderlands this shows as two Players
> getting the same cut scene regardless of the button mashing
> performance between scenes with one Player practically perfect the
> other pitiful in Play performance which plot invalidates when
> pre-written  I feel a number of titles have conceptualized ideas for
> other approaches that have seen totalitarian business tactics prevent
> in the standard practice of gutting the development team core of a
> title with franchise potential after the bulk of the content that can
> be milked from them creatively has been extracted and a less
> artistically minded crew can replace those directly tied to the
> contents creation and more likely to contend corporate calls to
> maximize profits not the product itself. Here's hoping the recent slap
> the destiny ruling awarding the composer nearly point for point what
> was asked for in the wrongful termination suit sees a halt to the
> practice as that's a fairly clear message indicating more than a
> misstep took place.
> Anyway I'll see if I can dig up text on Ringside as it sounds spot on
> to what I'm looking at for detailed dueling and blow by blow combat
> TFT doesn't do which is tough to get across conceptually as that dice
> roll feels like an individual blow not a cumulative result of 5
> seconds action in the manner of u.s. football short yardage plays.
> With each square in the 1.3m hex on quarter inch graph paper working
> out to a good enough for government work square foot per square (more
> like 13" by 13" but that's quibbling when that square foot is
> conceptually so useful) I can even represent footwork for fencing or
> the sweet science where working an opponent into a corner can be a
> tactical goal... or the reverse rope-a-dope of course which is fatigue
> focused for sure. Stopping a planed routine on the other hand is
> pretty hard especially if practice has set reflexive muscle memory.
> Ever seen the mistake happening as You make it spotting it but unable
> to stop it? Still trying to hit that fastball You can't see is worse I
> think for leaving one feeling helpless. Totally outclassed is a
> horrible experience but the way to experience meh in all things is to
> risk no weaknesses to focus on no strengths trying to cover all
> bases...
> Plus each sport can get a fantasy treatment times two with the real
> teams version and the blood bowl fantasy title as stand alone product
> from a Jay has a stomach too Ya know perspective...
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Marc Gacy <marcgacy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey Jay,  Have you ever seen an old boxing game called Ringside, wher they
>> had various moves like Uppercut and Combination.
>>
>> There was a matrix showing the effect of two fighters choosing a move
>> simultaneously and revealing it.
>>
>> I was reminded of it seeing your list.
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> X > (called Rest for simplicity)
>>> L > S > C > K > JB > CL > R > T > P > B > Sur > OP1 > OP2 > OB1 > OB2 >
>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote
>> :
>>> > Well burst My bubble and point out the flawed model that judges the
>>> > standard according to what humans value ergo baby chimp is less than
>>> > human because language is limited to a few phrases when human baby
>>> > babbles with a bigger vocabulary vocal chords a moot consideration
>>> > along with motor coordination and similar areas the humans have no
>>> > advantage in... However the idea is that a statistical mechanic is
>>> > representative of a definable concept that communicates an objective
>>> > idea with some precision owing to the quantification so while totally
>>> > fair as a point about assumptions of what IQ is overall I specifically
>>> > use IQ as a measure of how quickly a Figure can perceive it's
>>> > environment defined by IQ > > Figure can take on in Talents, Followers, and Orders and maintain at
>>> > full effect. In effect the faster a Figure sees the smarter it is and
>>> > the more specific functions can be maintained in the same period of
>>> > routine compared to a Figure with a lower IQ. The idea is 1pt of IQ
>>> > cost in a Talent represents not only the IQ cost to purchase said
>>> > Talent but also represents the time required in maintaining said
>>> > Talent each unit of downtime routine not actively engaged in gameplay
>>> > per say. S^3 fits there as well (S#!^, shower, shave activity and the
>>> > like) while 2sec/IQ (Joe Average ~0.2 second) is the see/decide time
>>> > that added with reaction time via DX (1 second / DX) determines which
>>> > phases are Actionable for a Figure naturally for focused combat that
>>> > looks at detail the 5 second turn technically subsumes into what's
>>> > basically a CRT for Melee as far as individual strikes are
>>> > concerned... I use En Guard!/Swashbuckler style actions/reactions for
>>> > this focus and the CRT generalization expands up into mass combat by
>>> > extending scale/duration higher than 1.3m/5sec with the Lords of
>>> > titles showing the concept isn't unfounded for TFT...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Cris Fuhrman <fuhrmanator@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Thomas Armstrong, "7 Kinds of Smart":
>>> >>
>>> >>    1. Word smart (verbal intelligence)
>>> >>    2. Picture smart
>>> >>    3. Music smart
>>> >>    4. Body smart (kenesthetic intelligence)
>>> >>    5. Logic smart (math/science)
>>> >>    6. People smart (social sense)
>>> >>    7. Self smart (intrapersonal intellect)
>>> >>
>>> >> TFT Talents try to model a lot of these notions, but it still ties bac
>> k
>>> to
>>> >> one number (IQ). Pushing the basic Melee/Wizard model clearly fails wi
>> th
>>> >> reality. What about eusociality? Is ant intelligence higher than a
>>> fighter?
>>> >>
>>> >> All models are wrong; some models are useful. (George Box?)
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Got the errata
>>> >>> Thanks
>>> >>> And I got the IQ 7 for ProotWiz'es although they may not actually be
>>> >>> proots if the tribe runs them off... anyway, I'z musing as to what
>>> >>> this might mean looking toward IQ 1 spells, if suchathing exists at
>>> >>> all that is...
>>> >>> IDK... Let's just say when testing defenses I find a fruitful first
>>> >>> start often comes from targeting the assumptions... For general
>>> >>> discussion I often describe "Magic" as the ability to call a virtual
>>> >>> particle of specific traits into being via vacuum genesis as the root
>>> >>> concept being manipulated but that's just one possibility that serves
>>> >>> more to show how much such a concept can influence the idea as oppose
>> d
>>> >>> to say sympathetic magic that may be heavy on components and the
>>> >>> correct verbal, gestural, procedural components to enact which is
>>> >>> different from blood magic and yada yada yada... what's magic is
>>> >>> affecting and area, perhaps at a distance, with an effect, and often
>>> >>> with force intent on causing damage and whateverelse is lumped into
>>> >>> the idea of the basic units on "Magic".
>>> >>> I'm not talking about being "right" or comparing ideas so much as
>>> >>> trying to point out that a LOT of core concepts are a bit... shaky
>>> >>> objectively speaking and I think that the shared participation in
>>> >>> what's in effect a story when the play is through is a major factor i
>> n
>>> >>> why a tabletop face to face soul rubbing RPGing gets a nod as a valid
>>> >>> form of artistic expression albeit it's hard to say how limited the
>>> >>> potential might be... and la la la, who knows? Still from that
>>> >>> approach I find a clear expression of the basic "building blocks"
>>> >>> helps in focusing each different Players visualization of what's
>>> >>> happening into that shared gestalt of play.
>>> >>> Uhhhh game as model railroad. There's the top of the model and there'
>> s
>>> >>> underneath the model and both are needed for the displays that attrac
>> t
>>> >>> the largest number of peoples attention... or describe the target
>>> >>> interest group better if going that way with it the idea being not
>>> >>> having a bunch of scenery guys show up to the experimental wiring
>>> >>> wingding... not as likely to have everybody enjoy the focus that
>>> >>> way...
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 9:19 PM, David Bofinger
>>> >>> <bofinger.david@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>> > On second thoughts add:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >    - SUMMON PROOTWADDLE (C: IQ 7, ST 1/1) Summons a prootwaddle [S
>>> >>> > T 10, DX
>>> >>> >    10, IQ 6, MA 10, carries two-handed maul 1+1, 1-3 unarmed in HTH
>> ]
>>> to
>>> >>> fig
>>> >>> > ht
>>> >>> >    for the caster.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > and modify:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >    - UNREALISTIC IMAGE (C: IQ 7, ST 1/-) Creates a translucent 1 he
>> x
>>> >>> image
>>> >>> >    that wouldn't normally fool anyone. Last 12 turns. Can be
>>> disbelieve
>>> >> d
>>> >>> on
>>> >>> >  2
>>> >>> >    vs IQ. Can be as effective, or almost as effective, as a normal
>>> Imag
>>> >> e
>>> >>> sp
>>> >>> > ell
>>> >>> >    in difficult seeing conditions (fog, etc.), if the creature bein
>> g
>>> >>> simula
>>> >>> > ted
>>> >>> >    happens to be translucent, or if the observer is a prootwaddle.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > The spells are IQ 7, not IQ 1. Probably should be a space between I
>> Q
>>> an
>>> >> d
>>> >>> 7.
>>> >>> > The idea is that an ordinary prootwaddle can't learn them, but one
>> of
>>> >>> those
>>> >>> > rare freakish prootwaddle geniuses can.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > --
>>> >>> > David
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > On 1 December 2015 at 15:05, David Bofinger <
>>> bofinger.david@gmail.com>
>>> >>> > wrote:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >> I think animals should have a sort of IQ crippleware. It can do
>>> some o
>>> >> f
>>> >>> >> what IQ does, willpower and perception for instance, but not
>>> everythin
>>> >> g.
>>> >>> >> And they have instinctive talents like Alertness.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> My IQ 7 spells are:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>    - BLUNT WEAPON (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) A blunt weapon does 1 point les
>> s
>>> >>> >>    damage. A weapon can be blunted up to 5 times, subsequent uses
>>> of t
>>> >> he
>>> >>> > spell
>>> >>> >>    have no effect. Blunting is a permanent effect and can be
>>> corrected
>>> >>> by
>>> >>> >>    Repair or use of a whetstone. Ineffective against weapons that
>>> are
>>> >>> alr
>>> >>> > eady
>>> >>> >>    blunt.
>>> >>> >>    - FOG (C: IQ7, ST 1/-) Fills one hex with a magical fog that
>>> somewh
>>> >> at
>>> >>> >>    obscures vision. -2 DX for missiles per hex of fog, and -2 DX i
>> f
>>> >>> attac
>>> >>> > king
>>> >>> >>    into or out of it. Anyone in or entering the fog also becomes
>>> >>> slightly
>>> >>> >>    damp. Lasts 12 turns, or less in wind.
>>> >>> >>    - KILL RAT (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) Causes 1 point of damage. Does get
>>> >>> stopped
>>> >>> >>    by armour.
>>> >>> >>    - LITERACY (S: IQ7, ST 2/-) Allows the caster to read and write
>>> any
>>> >>> >>    languages he knows, but reduces his IQ to 6 and disorders his
>>> commo
>>> >> n
>>> >>> s
>>> >>> > ense.
>>> >>> >>    The spell lasts one minute: long enough to, for instance, write
>>  a
>>> >>> slog
>>> >>> > an on
>>> >>> >>    his own or another prootwaddle's body. The negative effects of
>>> the
>>> >>> spe
>>> >>> > ll,
>>> >>> >>    however, pretty much guarantee the slogan will be bizarre at
>>> best a
>>> >> nd
>>> >>> >>    gibberish at worst.
>>> >>> >>    - MAGIC ROCK (M: IQ7, ST V/-) Creates and flings a magic rock t
>> o
>>> >>> >>    damage a single target. Does 1D-3 (minimum 0) for each ST point
>>> use
>>> >> d
>>> >>> t
>>> >>> > o
>>> >>> >>    cast.
>>> >>> >>    - PROOT! (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) Makes a loud “Pro
>> ot! Proo-oot!ï
>>> >> ¿½â‚¬
>>> >>> >   noise –
>>> >>> >>    louder than a prootwaddle can make. Prootwaddles find the sound
>>> >>> reassu
>>> >>> > ring.
>>> >>> >>    Non-prootwaddles find it irritating.
>>> >>> >>    - PUSH / PULL (T: IQ7, ST 2/-) Victim must roll 3 vs DX, or 4 v
>> s
>>> ST
>>> >> ,
>>> >>> >>    victim's choice. If he fails he must step directly away from (f
>> or
>>> >>> push
>>> >>> > ) or
>>> >>> >>    toward (for pull) the caster, or fall down. (As though forced t
>> o
>>> >>> retre
>>> >>> > at.)
>>> >>> >>    Can also be used to push around inanimate objects, or even
>>> friends.
>>> >>> >>    - SPEED HAIR (T: IQ7, ST 3/-) For the next day the target's hai
>> r
>>> >>> >>    (wherever on body) grows at twice the normal rate.
>>> >>> >>    - SUMMON HOUSE CAT (C: IQ7, ST 1/1) Summons a House Cat [ST 4,
>>> DX 1
>>> >> 4,
>>> >>> >>    IQ 5, MA 14. 1-2 in HTH only, -3 DX for enemies to hit it] to
>>> fight
>>> >>> fo
>>> >>> > r the
>>> >>> >>    caster.
>>> >>> >>    - SUMMON VERMIN (T: IQ7, ST 1/1) Summons vermin to fight for th
>> e
>>> >>> >>    caster, of a kind with which the caster is familiar: rats, bats
>> ,
>>> >>> piran
>>> >>> > has,
>>> >>> >>    piranhakeets, scuttles or something similar at GM discretion.
>>> Roll
>>> >>> one
>>> >>> >  die
>>> >>> >>    for the number, -1 if the environment is not really suitable, -
>> 2
>>> if
>>> >>> hi
>>> >>> > ghly
>>> >>> >>    unsuitable, -1 for bats, -2 for piranhakeets.
>>> >>> >>    - THICKSKINNED (T: IQ7, ST 2/-) Target's skin becomes thick and
>>> >>> >>    leathery, it stops 2 hits but the target suffers -1 DX.
>>> >>> >>    - UNREALISTIC IMAGE (C: IQ7, ST 1/-) Creates a translucent 1 he
>> x
>>> >>> image
>>> >>> >>    that wouldn't normally fool anyone. Last 12 turns. Can be
>>> disbeliev
>>> >> ed
>>> >>> > on 2
>>> >>> >>    vs IQ. In difficult seeing conditions (fog, etc.) can be almost
>>> as
>>> >>> >>    effective as a regular Image. Also effective if the creature
>>> being
>>> >>> >>    simulated happens to be translucent.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> --
>>> >>> >> David
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> On 1 December 2015 at 13:23, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>
>>> wrote
>>> >> :
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> Agreed David... working up a basic Google.doc for each stat as I
>>> >>> >>> currently have worked up. In a 3 stat system each stat needs to d
>> o
>>> >>> >>> more than a single task and I use IQ as a measure of perception
>>> and a
>>> >> s
>>> >>> >>> a measure of how effective a Figure or Unit can be at
>>> micro-managing
>>> >>> >>> its time which in effect allows more Followers/Talents/Orders to
>> be
>>> >>> >>> carried the higher the IQ. Orders are in effect Talents learned a
>> s
>>> a
>>> >>> >>> Unit and able to be executed en mass and the above is more a rule
>>> of
>>> >>> >>> thumb guide to what kind of Orders might be expected from a Unit
>> of
>>> >>> >>> whathaveyou rather than trying to pin individual IQ's per say...
>>> >>> >>> although the point about the monkey is quite interesting...
>>> assuming
>>> >>> >>> communication was possible such that an Order set was able to be
>>> >>> >>> established and the monkey was hip to thinking like a human of
>>> course
>>> >> .
>>> >>> >>> Plant's as individuals may not influence on a Melee scale of acti
>> on
>>> >>> >>> but the idea of a bio-region of plants being in a network may all
>> ow
>>> >>> >>> some influence on such activity? Agent Orange? IDK... How much do
>> es
>>> >>> >>> swimming have to do with smart?
>>> >>> >>> Great points to mull over Sir, I'd love to see anything You might
>>> hav
>>> >> e
>>> >>> >>> to hand on IQ7 spells by the way... no worries though.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 5:23 PM, David Bofinger
>>> >>> >>> <bofinger.david@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >> IQ
>>> >>> >>> >> 0 >> >> 1 >> >> 2 >> >> 3 >> >> 4 >> >> 5 >> >> 6 >> >> 7 >> >
>>>
>>> 8
>>> >>> >> >> 9 >> >> 10 >> >
>>> >>> >>> > TL;DR but I picked this up skimming. My first instinct is that
>>> it's
>>> >>> go
>>> >>> > t
>>> >>> >>> to
>>> >>> >>> > be wrong. By these definitions a fighter who owned a pet monkey
>>> mig
>>> >> ht
>>> >>> > be
>>> >>> >>> > well advised to let it handle the thinking.
>>> >>> >>> >
>>> >>> >>> > IQ 7 lets you buy weapon skills. I don't know if anyone's taugh
>> t
>>> a
>>> >>> >>> monkey
>>> >>> >>> > to fence, but I would guess someone in a circus has tried so
>>> probab
>>> >> ly
>>> >>> >>> they
>>> >>> >>> > failed.
>>> >>> >>> >
>>> >>> >>> > Great apes will occasionally use clubs but that doesn't require
>>  a
>>> >>> >>> talent.
>>> >>> >>> >
>>> >>> >>> > Some apes have been taught e.g. sign language but that has no I
>> Q
>>> >>> >>> threshold
>>> >>> >>> > unless you call it literacy in which case it's IQ 8.
>>> >>> >>> >
>>> >>> >>> > Maybe chimps are IQ 4 to 6? That leaves prootwaddles slightly
>>> smart
>>> >> er
>>> >>> >>> than
>>> >>> >>> > most chimps which seems right.
>>> >>> >>> >
>>> >>> >>> > Birds vary a lot. Some birds, mostly corvids and parrots, are
>>> reall
>>> >> y
>>> >>> >>> quite
>>> >>> >>> > smart, probably maxing out at IQ 5 or 6. On the other hand
>>> ratites
>>> >>> ten
>>> >>> > d
>>> >>> >>> to
>>> >>> >>> > be idiots.
>>> >>> >>> >
>>> >>> >>> > Dolphins aren't as smart as popularly imagined.
>>> >>> >>> >
>>> >>> >>> > Working at the trailing edge of intellect reminds me of when I
>>> wrot
>>> >> e
>>> >>> u
>>> >>> > p
>>> >>> >>> IQ
>>> >>> >>> > 7 spells for prootwaddle wizards. Magic Rock!
>>> >>> >>> >
>>> >>> >>> > --
>>> >>> >>> > David
>>> >>> >>> >
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