Re: (TFT) Converting Dungeons and Droolers...

[Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>]

Message text written by INTERNET:tft@brainiac.com
> 
>>>>>After all, your TFT character is either a Hero or a Wizard - two
distinct
>>>>>classes that directly and permanently affect your character
development.  

Well that's one way of looking at 'classes'. But I dont look at them that
way because while they affect your character development they dont really
'inhibit' it in the same way that D&D or Palladium classes do. Wizards can
use any spell or talent that a Hero can use and a Hero can use any spell
that a wizard can use. 

Changing the 'cost' permanently affects your character but it doesn't mean
that your character  WONT be able to learn or do something in the way that
Theives will never be able to cast 9th level spells (as an example). 

>>>>>>Of course, all games with classes subtly enforce a 'winning'
mentality, which
>>>>>>means that no one who plays these class-based games is capable of
actually
>>>>>>role-playing, right?

Good twist, but no, not at all. You can role-play even if you play D&D. But
your not very likely too. You'd be role-playing *despite* the rules, not
because of them. It's definitely a generalization, but so is "Walking
around downtown LA at night is dangerous.". It's not *always* true, but its
true enough times that its safer to pay attention to than not....

>>>>>>Quite frankly, how much role-playing is required for Death Test, DT2,
TSD,
>>>>>>Orb Quest, Grail Quest, or even Tollenkar's Lair?

That's a good question. Personally I dont think of those as role-playing at
all. I dont even think 1 GM and 1 Player is role-playing. (this is probably
another discussion, but you did bring up a valid point). 

Can the 'audience' of Role-Playing but ONLY yourself? I dont really think
so, because part of Role-playing (in the Game sense - not the Psychological
sense) is Improvisinational acting. Can you improvise by yourself? I dont
think so. Because you can't prevent yourself from knowing "whats coming up
next" and therefore you can't really improvise a solution different
according to the stimulus. 

What about the first time  you played Death Test? You improvised because
you didn't know what was coming. But doesn't Role-Playing require that all
the participants be part of the audience as well as the actors? I think so,
so I dont think you can really do that with 1 or 2 players. You can't play
enough different roles (audience, actor, team-mate and gamemaster)  that
way. 

But that's just me...

>>>>>>on to make it marketable as a RPG).  The big difference is that D&D
has
>>>>>>evolved over the years, and TFT is still TFT 

I disagree completely! Even the third edition of D&D is being hailed for
having new features that TFT has had since the beginning! D&D has evolved -
but it still hasn't caught up to a mere 'board-game with RPG rules added'.
You still have a MUCH harder time playing a Theif-Pirate or Merchant Prince
in D&D than you do in TFT.... 

To me, the nature of evolution is improve over time. D&D has only very
slowly added more modern concepts and has kept concepts that have long been
shown to be outdated and/or detrimental (classes and levels). 

Certainly some of this is opinion, because game design has a large
component that art - and art will always be somewhat subjective. But part
of it is also science, and I dont think alot of the concepts of D&D can
stand up very well to being 'good' game design. Some of it is simply
"Because its' always been that way!". Not necessarily a bad thing - but you
can't call that 'evolution'.

>>>>>>(unless you count GURPS as an
>>>>>>evolution of TFT, which I hate to do because I strongly dislike GURPS
for
>>>>>>various reasons).

Definitely agree there. 

>>>>>>It's all in how you play it.  Some people can't role-play to save
their
>>>>>>lives.  

This is the common defense of D&D. The system doesn't really matter. But in
truth it does. That's why some people like football and some people like
baseball. It's not really how you play. It what your doing. And while it's
certainly theoretically possible to role-play in D&D, it's not very likely.
After all, your first limited to a character that's only spent his life
doing one thing and one thing only! 

Secondly, none of your rules are going to inspire you to be a Theif-Pirate
because it's not on the 'list' and your not likely to be a Merchant-Prince
because you dont get rewarded unless you kill things. 

So sure, it's possible to role-play in D&D, but if someone invited you over
for a Role-Playing Game and when you got there they whipped out Monopoloy
or Checkers, would you really think you were going to be in for a
role-playing game? Possible but not likely....

>>>>>>My point?  I guess it would be that the player's and the GM define
the game,
>>>>>>not the rules, and it's far easier to avoid the rules and get to the
>>>>>>role-playing if everyone knows the rules well.

Nope. Not at all. It's the rules that define the game. The players and the
GM can go *beyond* the rules, but the rules have to be the starting place.
You can role-play without rules, but if you do use rules, your play will
tend to reflect the concepts built into the game. We like TFT because it's
simple, fast and flexible.  Therefore our games tend to be simple, fast and
flexible. 

D&D games reward killing and single-definition characters. Therefore D&D
games tend to be about killing and gaining levels. They don't HAVE to be,
but you WILL notice a 'general' simularity between D&D games and GURPS
games and Traveller games and any other games. 

The GM and players can change the nature of the game over time, but GMs and
Players tend to gravitate toward the games that reflect the concepts they
like. GURPS players like 'realism' therefore they play GURPS. They picked
the game, not vice versa.. 

>>>>>>BTW: I came very close to converting my D&D group to TFT; however, a
couple
>>>>>>of the players got their hands on D&D 3e, and begged to go that route
>>>>>>instead.  Since the campaign is as much theirs as it is mine, and I
was
>>>>>>outnumbered, I relented.

That's certainly understandable, but I'll bet they created typical
one-dimensional characters nonetheless......

My players begged me to run Robin Hood. D&D3 as well. I told them no, I
wouldn't do it.  I told them to give TFT a chance, and if they don't like
it, then someone else can run. 

Here's a couple of character ideas:
---- an expert fencer who's got a reputation for sullying a nobleman's
daughter and is only a really good fencer when he's intoxicated.
--- a courtesan who's common sense advice is used by noblemen and outlaws
alike

This was within *hours* of perusing the TFT rules after NEVER having heard
of TFT and there are others....everybody came up with something interesting
right away...inpsired by the interesting array of Talents. 

Could this be done in D&D? Sure! Does it happen very often no matter WHO
the player is? 

I've never seen it happen in D&D AT ALL, but I imagine that it happens
occassionally. But with TFT it seems to be the rule rather than the
exception....a generalization for sure, but it's always been my experience
with the game.....

>>>>>>>of the campaign - go slowly, or you might scare them.  Teach them to
role-play
>>>>>>rather than roll-play, and you might have a convert for life.

This is what to me is the biggest problem with the Converting D&D players
theory. TFT seems to allow nothing BUT roleplaying. How can you 'roll-play'
in TFT? There's not really enough rules to occupy that much time.....which
seems to me to be what it should be...

>>>>>>Just my opinion, and this is mostly a joke.  

Agreed. All in fun. 

But everyone who tells me it's the Players and not the Game tells me ways
AROUND the system - not how the system makes them roleplay better. But I
can tell you how TFT makes you roleplay. 

Really simple rules. You'll know them well enough to ingore them after the
first session or two. You wont have anything else to do BUT roleplay. 
Wide variety of Talents that allow you to focus on the one or two things
that make you different and then run with it...you can do anything - even
if you are a wizard or a hero!

Whew! Good flame-bait! Why throw magic missile when you can throw a
molotail!

Michael 

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