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Re: (TFT) Re:Converting D&D



Message text written by INTERNET:tft@brainiac.com
> 
>>>>>>>>>likewise, you can't convince me that D&D inhibits
>>>>>>>>>role-playing (because we do that every time we play D&D, and have
for years).

Well, that's why I think your misunderstandng me - because just because
*you* role-play D&D has nothing to do with whether or not D&D inhibits
role-play. You're group isn't really statistically significant. You also
dont know whether or not you would role-play BETTER if you'd never played
D&D. As I said, this isn't provable, but its also not invalid just because
there's one exception. 

> It seems obvious to me in the words "isn't being played" that this was
> NEVER meant to be interpreted that way. At the end of page 25 it says
that
> the Jobs table allows you to "earn money, get experience, and get
> killed...all without ever going on an adventure...". 
> 
> So doesn't it stand to reason that if you ARE going on adventures the GM
> shouldn't be using the Job table? That's not going 'beyond the rules'
> that's not mis-reading them! (IMO).

>>>>>>>>>Well, if you feel that making a contract with the local
carpenter's guild
>>>>>>>>>to build your tavern, and making contacts with local folks to hire
employees
>>>>>>>>>is an "adventure", then we have different ideas as to what an
adventure is.

Yes I do. This is part of the plot. It's important to the 'series'. The
Jobs Table is for those periods of time that's simply not important to the
series. But its WAY better than "nothing significant happens in your life
when you walk off camera.". As that kind of tool, its perfectly fine. It
was never meant to be a substitute for your adventurers actually having
something else to do! (like build a tavern).

> >>>>>>>Usually, I require the player to write up a brief short story,
business plan, or
> >>>>>>>whatever that describes what they want to accomplish, and unless I
find

So you dont really have any *need* for the Jobs table then do you? You
already HAVE things for the players to do! 

> >>>>>>>As opposed to "I rolled an 8.  Nothing interesting happened this
week, but
> >>>>>>>I earned some money".

Sure, but what if someone moves out of town and comes back for the weekend,
maybe you want to give them a chance to gain a few EPs over the time
they've been gone. You dont really need them to write short story about it!


> >>>>>>>So, your role-playing uses random determination of death, severe
injury, or
> >>>>>>>character improvement with no input from the player, and merely a
"saving
> >>>>>>>throw" against a character statistic to allow the player to avoid
it, regard-
> >>>>>>>less of the character's personality, decisions, or role in the
world.

Nope. Your the only one who thinks the Job Table has anything to do with
Role-playing. It's just a GM tool, not a mandatory rule... no one HAS to
take a Job and the GM doesn't have to use the Jobs table. 

Focusing on one rule you dont like doesn't invalidate the whole system. You
want bad TFT rules? Look at Rolling to Miss and Gaining a Wish!

> >>>>>>>There was a "Wandering Damage Table" in an early issue of Dragon
that you
> >>>>>>>might be interested in.  It applies the same principles of the
Jobs table
> >>>>>>>to in-play use.

Your right. Which is why the Jobs Table rules specifically say that they
ARENT' for use in play! 

> >>>>>>>But by forcing a game mechanic on it, you remove the impetus to
role-play
> >>>>>>>those situations, and trivialize it down to some dice rolling,
which does
> >>>>>>>nothing to help define your character.  Better to have no rules at
all
> >>>>>>>than have crappy rules that make it a dice-rolling experience
rather than
> >>>>>>>a role-playing experience.

I agree completely --- if "it" were SUPPOSSED to be a role-playing
exerience. But "it" is obviously something that happens OUTSIDE of
role-playing (ie...not being played!). Way better to have rules and not use
them than to not have rules. Less work to change...

> >>>>>>>Hmm... Maybe they weren't labeled as such until 5 years later, but
we were
> >>>>>>>role-playing (and blue-booking) years before "role-playing games"
existed.

Well, okay, all I'm saying is that since you WANT to take the time to
generate the events that happen in 'down' time, then you DO have a better
system. I just dont think its that bad a system for when a GM *doesn't*
want to take that time and it prevents a Cone of Safety to players who
retire just to keep their characters at massive levels -- I haven't really
used it alot myself, but I do think its less harmful than nothing.

> >>>>>>>But, by not forcing a mechanic on it, D&D allows the individual
role-playing
> >>>>>>>groups to role-play those periods of time, or to ignore them
depending on
> >>>>>>>the desires of the group.  It was enlightened for its time!

Well first of all, the Jobs table was never forced on anyone. Second, by
leaving it out, most groups didn't in fact role-play it at all. You have a
lot better chance of role-playing WITH the Jobs Table that coming up
without it. You CAN do it, but again, your indivudal experience doesn't
reflect what most players did. Most players didn't role-play at all, but
assumed that "Nothing" happened during down time. That's alot worse that
the Job Table IMO. 

Your perfectly free to role-play or ignore those times even WITH the Jobs
Table! Whos gonna stop you?!

By the way, you can make the same argument for D&D's wandering monster
tables. How DARE the force the GM to use them! If they weren't there the
players would be free to create a scientifically accurate set of migratory
patterns....

> >>>>>>>Interesting.  I'd never use the term 'roll up' to refer to
creating a TFT
> >>>>>>>character.  I usually either "design" or "define" them.

Your right. I've misused the term. I mean 'create' 3 characters. 

> >>>>>>> Apparently, even though it's not part of his character
> >>>>>>>background, he was extensivly trained (and continued to train)
with the
> >>>>>>>greatsword so that it matches his skill in the broadsword.  

Well, if you want to talk about the validatidy of this particular rule - go
ahead and start another flame-war! 

I personally think this is both realistic and encourages roleplaying. But
it's not really relevant this particular discussion. 

> >>>>>>>And how does two-weapons talent improve your ability with a single
rapier?

Confers the ability to use a Main-Gauche, which can't happen with Sword
talent. 

> >>>>>>>Or are you saying that all rapier experts have to wield two
weapons?

No, just that there's a distinct difference in weaponry techniques that's
not the same as in D&D. I personally think its better. If you prefer D&D
Weapon Specialization (or think that the differences are minor enough not
to matter) then we agree to disagree on that on!


Now lets put this in perspective. You like all RPG's roughly the same and
see that there are bad rules in any system - therefore each is equally able
to fascillitate roleplaying. The people are what makes the difference? 

Is that about right for the way you feel? 

michael 
=====
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