Re: (TFT) Guns and Armour Penetration.

["Charles Gadda" <cgadda@earthlink.net>]

> What "bullet test" is being referenced here and at what range? I have no
> doubt that *some* bullets at certain ranges can be stopped with medieval
> plate armor. But TFT fights occur at very short range, so battlefield
> testing (if it is to support your contention) should be done with bullets
> similar to what we are discussing and at very close ranges.

Who cares? The fact is that the purchaser, at least, expected some
protection from it. Enough said.

> Until I see the pages (and their attendant cites) I will remain
unconvinced.
> The issue is not -- nor has it ever been -- whether modern armor can stop
> bullets. The issue is whether medieval plate armor was sufficiently
> effective versus
> bullets to provide a significantly greater chance of surviving a bullet
hit.

Mediaeval plate armour was close to 1/8" thickness in selected places and
the better stuff of sword grade steel, occasionally even heat treated. Tough
stuff. I have not had an opportunity to make a breastplate of this quality,
though I'm sure someone else has. Until that is done and a musket be used
against it, it is impossible to make firm claims; though educated guesses
are possible based upon physics and material properties.

In any case, the point may be moot - obviously, if an arquebus is at all
available, at least some armorers are going to upgrade their wares to
accomodate (just as gunsmiths will improve the quality of their arms and
powder makers the quality of their powder). One cannot assume strict
mediaeval technology in the face or armament advances like guns -
inevitably, something will be done to counter it.

> <sigh>
>
> Again -- type of bullets, thickness of armor, range, etc., must be
specified
> to properly evaluate this claim.

Wasn't really a claim, as such, I just thought the story interesting. Again,
if you want real evidence, read the book. I'm not going to reproduce the
whole thing for you.

> Your premature "apology" is rather curious. Why not simply avoid the
> obnoxious (and rather pitiful) insults and simply give the information
where
> the book may be found? Or simply have the courage to make the obnoxious
> statement and take the consequences.
>
> In any case, I suggest that you cease these absurd little speculations and
> confine yourself to the issues at hand. Otherwise little will come of this
> other than a flamewar -- and I have no desire to educate an obvious
amateur
> on such things.
>
If a flamewar results, at least half of the blame will be laid squarely upon
your head. I take most of the blame for starting it - after all, I did make
a very nasty comment at the beginning of my first reply to you presuming
some ignorance on your part. That was uncalled for, and I am sorry. But you
have been going out of your way to escalate this, which is behaviour I would
have expected from Michael, not you.

As a point of fact, I really was trying to limit it, but would have been
better served by omitting that comment altogether, I suppose. But I was
somewhat piqued, too - the book is readily available, if you bother to look
for it. You make it sound like I was setting you up for failure by citing an
unfindable source! That was simply not true.

As for educating "an obvious amateur" well, perhaps that is so. Then again,
maybe not. You have failed to cite ANY sources for you claims; while I can
speculate on what some of them are (and, indeed, may well possess them in my
own library) you have not stated one. I have given you two so far; if you'd
like my entire arms & armour reading list I can send it along, but since it
is over 5 pages in MS word, that might be a bit much.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that I might just know a fair amount on
this subject? Whether more or less than you is impossible to say without
some insight into the basis for your viewpoint. Since you refuse to provide
any basis for your claims (I know you have a basis, but you seem unwilling
to share) then no conclusions can be made. Further, yours and my egos seem
to conspire against us from learning from each other. Too bad.
=====
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