RE: (TFT) Is a sweeping blow physically cutting thru your target?

["rsmith" <rsmith@lightspeed.ca>]

Nicely argued Charles!
	Do I detect a hint of someone who has
spoken on this subject before?	;)

	Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: tft-owner@brainiac.com [mailto:tft-owner@brainiac.com]On Behalf Of
Charles Gadda
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 9:35 PM
To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: Re: (TFT) Is a sweeping blow physically cutting thru your
target?


Huh?!?!?!?!?!

As someone who has studied the subject of ancient and mediaeval swords for
many years, I can tell you that even Celtic swords could be of very high
quality, as well as Roman, Norse, and any early Mediaeval sword you care to
name.

Some, obviously, could be crap - but most were quite good. And eminently
capable of delivering severe shearing blows, some of which could, indeed,
cut a person in half. There are documented incidents of this sort of thing
occuring, and even a few forensic examples from the Battle of Visby.

It should be pointed out that Katanas were also of varying quality. During
the major wars, they were mass produced and many of these were of very poor
quality. There were quality building techniques, and there were quick and
nasty ones. For a detailed discussion see Kapp & Yoshihara "Craft of the
Japanese Sword".

The bit about having to be straightened out after each battle has some basis
in fact, albeit minor. There are Roman accounts (from Polybius) that
indicated that Celtic warriors had to do this. However, many Celtic swords
that have been excavated and scientifically studied show that the majority
(about 2/3) were quite good metallurgically and may have even been well heat
treated. They were not all poorly made, and the best examples are every bit
as good as many Kats. Reference Pleiner "The Celtic Sword" for more details.
I would also point out that the Roman accounts may be biased in the sense
that they wanted to encourage their soldiers by disparaging their Celtic
adversaries and their equipment. The statement cannot be taken as wholly
reliable.

Now, some pattern welded Migration Era and early Viking Age swords tended to
have soft cores - HOWEVER the cutting edges were very, very good steel and
quite capable of taking and holding a very sharp edge. They might take a
set, but not necessarily a severe one. And they were eminently capable of
terrible shearing blows. One detailed account describes a sword blow that
sheared a man from the shoulder down to the waist (to which the slayer
remarked "Verily, this man has no bones!" - now THERE is a triple damage hit
if I ever saw one...). For a discussion of pattern welding there are a
number of sources: any of Prof. Hrisoulas' books on blade making,
Davidsson's "Sword in Anglo Saxon England" and Pierce/Oakeshott's "Swords of
the Viking Age" among others.

By 900 A.D. or so Europeans perfected the art of making homogenous steel
swords, which were of medium to high carbon steel - a somewhat streaky and
impure steel, with occassional detrimental elements and alloys, but
nonetheless fairly good steel. Quite capable of being flexible and taking
and holding a good edge (note that even the Migration Era swords could do
this, too - but there was a marked tendency towards a bit of softness, as I
mentioned previous). Believe me these swords were quite good, even by modern
standards.

It should be noted that while Katanas seldom bent out of shape, they did
tend towards brittleness, which made chipping and outright breakage a real
possiblility, often realised. Softness or brittleness - pick your poison.

It is very sad that such bizarre and baseless myths persist in the face of
the detailed knowledge that is now possessed about these weapons. While I
like Katanas a great deal, even I weary of hearing of their mystical cutting
qualities and other properties, while Euro swords are denigrated as mere
lumps of iron, incapable of cutting through butter. ABSURD! There are good
Katanas, and there are bad Katanas. Likewise there are good Euro swords, and
bad Euro swords. For every anecdote quoted regarding the bad qualities of
Euro swords, one can easily find one (or more) that extol their good
quality, if one bothers to look.

For any who still possess doubts of these claims, there is one ultimate
test. With a little more practice, I should be able to make a pattern welded
sword blade. I can make one that closely matches the early metallurgical
quality (using a medium carbon edge forge welded to a body of relatively
soft steels - say 1018 & perhaps nickle). Those who doubt the ability to cut
through even a "wrist or ankle" can choose to be cutting targets -
volunteers, anyone???


----- Original Message -----
From: John Linzy <juzjohn@adelphia.net>
To: <tft@brainiac.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: (TFT) Is a sweeping blow physically cutting thru your target?


> Musashi was using a katana which was a miracle of metal working for it's
> time.  Most European swords, until maybe the mid to late 1500's, were
pretty
> poorly made metallurgy wise and usually had to be straightened out after
> each battle!  They physically weren't capable of cutting all the way
through
> a human body.  Maybe a wrist or ankle but I wouldn't count on it.
>
> Of course, this is a fantasy game.....
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tft-owner@brainiac.com [mailto:tft-owner@brainiac.com]On Behalf Of
> David Michael Grouchy II
> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:24 PM
> To: tft@brainiac.com
> Subject: Re: (TFT) Is a sweeping blow physically cutting thru your
> target?
>
>
> >From: "rsmith" <rsmith@lightspeed.ca>
> >
> > I do not consider a sweeping blow to
> >actually cut thru the first victim.  I
> >consider sweeping blows to be a series of
> >shallow cuts across the fronts of several
> >figures.
>
>    Myomoto Musashi said that when one cuts the wrist of one's opponent cut
> both wrists, and cleanly, in one fluid stroke.  Because of this tradition
in
> my campaign I allow a combination aimed-shot and sweeping-blow, so a leg
and
> an arm can be taken from one opponent.  Or two adjacent necks.  Or three.
>
>    David Michael Grouchy II
>
>
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