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Re: (TFT) HTH mechanics
I was going by foggy mis-memory of the TFT HTH rules yesterday. I've now
reviewed Advanced Melee, and summarize the HTH rules as:
* As was mentioned, the combat options rules contradict the HTH rules as to
when HTH attempts occur. According to the Turn Sequencing rules on AM page
3, attempting to enter HTH is an action and so takes place not during
movement. The HTH rules on AM page 15 say HTH attempts take place during
movement. This makes a big difference, of course.
The HTH rules are more specific and so would seem to be the most
authoritative, although there is a contradiction so one could argue for the
other way, which favors the defender since it gives the defender a chance
(if adjDX is higher) to strike with a weapon before HTH, and gives the
defender the first attack anyway since entering HTH would use the turn's
action of the HTH initiator.
* Not mentioned (nor contradicted) in the AM page 15 rules, AM page 3 says
attempting to enter HTH requires the attacker to have moved half MA or less.
* HTH can only be entered if one of the following is true: Defender has
back to wall, or is not standing, or has _lower_ MA, or is entered from the
rear, or agrees to HTH.
* There's a die-roll with various effects giving a 4/6 chance HTH will
happen if the above conditions are met. 1/6 chance the defender
automatically hits the attacker with a ready weapon (extra hit not taking
an action).
So in short, ya, you guys are right that these rules make HTH relatively
easy IF the attacker has higher MA. Wolves therefore can generally get
humans in HTH most of the time. Bears have MA 8 (we mentioned before that
this seemed slow compared to reality, but I wonder if part of the reason
was game balance considering these HTH entry rules!), though Cave Bears are
2-hex creatures meaning they can waltz right into one-hex figures. Big cats
have MA 12 so they're much better at getting humans into HTH, and they do
enough damage to chomp through most armor (unlike wolves, where 3-4 points
of armor is fairly effective protection).
So regarding my earlier comments:
At 11:07 PM 3/11/05 -0500, ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 3/11/2005 9:09:40 PM Central Standard Time, pvk@oz.net
writes:
> > For example: If a summoned wolf fights a summoned Myrimidon, the wolf
> will
> > usually win provided it attempts to enter HTH. But the Myrimidon is
> > *suppose* to
> > be the more powerful combatant. Something is wrong, here.
>
> Er, maybe you are playing with the typo mentioned earlier. Doesn't the
> myrmidon generally get to hack at the wolf at least once, assuming the
> myrmidon doesn't do something stupid like use full MA?
...
I was incorrect - the wolf will tend to get into HTH 4/6 of the time if it
takes that option, where it will have the advantage. However, I disagree
this means the wolf is overall more powerful _overall_ - it just means a
single wolf is a good counter to a single myrmidon. The myrmidon will still
be better than the wolf against certain other types of foes, and for
reasons that make some sense, which is interesting and not necessarily
"wrong".
Anyway, even with entering HTH as an action, the wolf has higher Dx and so
acts first, initiating HTH. One die is rolled, with a 2/3 chance of HTH
succeeding The myrimidon doesn't have a dagger, so that result doesn't
apply, and even
against a regular foe, a "draw dagger" result causes the opponent to lose the
use of his good, big melee weapon. The chance of the myrimidon geting a hit
in with his broadsword is less than 1/3, and even a wounded wolf is still
dangerous if it gets into HTH on the second turn.
Now having re-read the rules, I concur with all of this.
> I don't remember
> the details, but I do remember plenty of battles with wolves or unarmed
> mobs, and I know the guys with weapons were generally better off and got a
> pretty good chance to use the weapon first unless they were swarmed.
> Something like, HTH is a combat action that requires you to start the turn
> engaged, and requires a 4/DX roll. So on the turn two figures meet, the
> armed character gets to use his weapon, and then DX comes into play to see
> when the HTH attempt occurs, and whether it succeeds or not.
Where did this come from? A house rule? In all the "by the book" variations,
a character needed a 4-die vs Dx roll to *leave* HTH, but only the one die
"see what happens" roll was needed to enter HTH.
This came from my faulty memory of the TFT rules, which seem to have
confused the disengagement roll and GURPS HTH rules and invented a new
imaginary rule. Sorry.
Also, I remember now a couple of the wolf battles I was thinking of, and
now also remember that the reason the wolves died en masse was because the
player controlling them (me, actually) didn't think (and/or roleplayed) to
have the wolves run straight into HTH, and instead had them line up at
one-hex range and bite, where they got chopped up quite handily. I also
remember later combats where they did use their MA to get into HTH, in
which case, the humans with armor tended to do ok in HTH, while unarmored
humans would tend to get munched up.
...
Ok, so having digested all of that, I would say that the rules are a bit
too much in favor of HTH attempts by figures with higher MA, because IMO
someone with a ready hand weapon should get a better than 1/6 chance to use
the hand weapon on someone trying to jump them, _before_ they do so, even
if they have lower DX, on the principle and experience of weapon length.
Just as pole weapons naturally get to attack first when shorter weapons
move to engage them, hand-weapons, should get to attack first against
figures trying to get them into HTH. So, a simple suggestion to "fix" this:
1) Use the by-the-book TFT rules, whichever sequence you prefer, though I
would tend to choose the "during movement" system listed under the HTH
rules themselves, since they are more specific, with the one-die roll
replaced by the following new rules:
2) When a figure moves to attempt HTH from the defender's front or side
hex, if the defender has not yet taken his action for the turn, then the
defender gets the option to strike at the attacker immediately using any
ready weapon (including fists) - this will use the defender's action for
the turn. The to-hit roll is on 4 dice if the attacker entered from the
side. If the defender hits the attacker, HTH does not occur and the
attacker remains in the hex from which they attempted HTH (*). If the
defender misses or does not attack, the attacker must roll 3 dice on DX to
enter HTH - if they fail, the attacker remains in the hex from which they
attempted HTH (*).
(* - If HTH attempts are interpreted as occurring during movement, a
failed HTH attempt stops the attacker's movement, but does not cost them
their attack. If instead, HTH attempts are interpreted as being an action,
a failed HTH attempt uses the attacker's action for the turn.)
3) If HTH does occur, each figure has the option to immediately drop their
weapon and/or shield (weapons larger than daggers are useless in HTH, and
shields offer no protection, but dropping them is not strictly required).
Also as HTH begins, if the defender has a free hand (due to immediate
dropping or otherwise), he has the option to try to draw a dagger (if he
has one reachable) - this require a 3 die roll versus DX to succeed.
(Optional rule: a 17 on the defender's dagger-draw roll means the
dagger falls in the hex. An 18 means it falls into a random adjacent hex,
unreachable from the HTH hex.)
4) Choose one of the following optional rules:
4a) If HTH does occur, both figures fall down in the defender's hex.
4b) When HTH occurs and at the start of every turn including the first,
each standing figure in HTH must roll 3 dice vs. ST or fall down. If a
figure doesn't fall down, resolve HTH normally except standing figures are
not at +4 to be hit, and when HTH ends they won't need to take a turn to
stand up.
(Even rule 4b is slightly unsatisfying to me, but my point was that a
weaker figure shouldn't be able to automatically knock down a stronger one
simply by jumping on it. Knocking people down isn't that easy and certainly
isn't automatic - lots of HTH involves people standing up and hugging each
other ineffectively. In fact, I might even throw in a DX penalty to hit
others in HTH unless you have the Unarmed Combat talent (including almost
all animals and monsters) - it's not as quick or exciting, but seems more
realistic to me - think of boxers holding onto each other to avoid injury,
for example, or unskilled scuffles where people grapple and grunt but don't
really hurt each other.)
Alternatively, a much simpler change would be to take the one-die roll,
which is currently:
1-2: HTH no defender dagger.
3-4: HTH defender can draw a dagger.
5: No HTH.
6: No HTH; defender automatically gets an extra hit on attacker.
to something more favoring the defender if the defender has a hand weapon,
such as:
1: HTH no defender dagger.
2: HTH defender can draw a dagger.
3-4: No HTH.
5-6: No HTH; defender automatically gets an extra hit on attacker.
PvK
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