Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 16:15:33 +0800 From: "Jay Carlisle" <selfinflicted_wounds@boardermail.com> Subject: Re: (TFT) (SFB) (GURPS) ...From the point of Game Theory you've put your finger on something here though about the tinkering. The "richest" game has the least number of rules leading to the largest number of outcomes.
Go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(board_game)This may not be the ultimate in "simple rules, complex game" but it gets my nomination.
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:32:58 -0700 (PDT) From: pvk@oz.net Subject: Re: (TFT) (SFB) (GURPS) ... It seems to me that not all rules limit outcomes. It's not the number of rules that determine how limited or enjoyable or interesting a game is to each player; it's how much they like those rules, and each player has unique tastes, though some have some similar tastes (and hopefully they can get together and enjoy some good games). My personal examples, if interested: To my tastes, TFT was wonderful because it had very tasty rules. I value rules that are consistent, make sense, seem realistic, and add up to a rich game universe I can explore and have huge amounts of fun with. I also enjoyed SFB for several years, even when it had tons of complex rules. I also enjoy complex wargames, program computers, etc.
SPI's Air War. This was a very good attempt to accurately model jet-age air combat with dice and cardboard. There was one minor inconsistency we found, involving transitioning from dives to climbs at low speed.
The major problem was converting 2.5 seconds of game time to ~ 5 minutes of play time, which converted a "right stuff", agression-dependent, highly skilled contest of reactions (real ACM) into a thought-dependent strategy game. No way around that without lots of computers, I think.
I agree strongly with pvk's post, though, with one modification (and one I've mentioned before). Rules, almost no matter how complex, that pass the "smell test" will produce a good game; that is to say, if the results are in line with what we expect in practically all circumstances, we'll remember the rules and be able to play the game and enjoy it.
The modification I'd make is that it *really* helps if the rules are "modular" in the sense that one can play an enjoyable game with only a subset (or multiple subsets) of the rules. That lets new players join easily, permits fast simple games when one doesn't have time for a full-up campaign, and makes it easier to reference the rules book as needed. (It's also a good gimmick for the sales department, unfortunately....)
Air War, The Fantasy Trip, and the Settlers of Catan system are all good examples of games constructed this way.
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