Re: (TFT) War, supportability, and economy

["maou_tsaou1@netzero.net" <maou_tsaou1@netzero.net>]

Hi Mark!

Okay let's see...

>A hundred cows and one bull equals massive heard growth whereas one 
>cow and a hundred bulls...
>Well maybe that's time to go to war...

< What's overlooked often is that societies with high ratios of females/males did *not* grow rapidly in most cases. The jealousies and other emotional imbalances between the wives (and hence mothers) led to jealousies and other emotional imbalances between the offspring, which very often led to civil war, fratricide, lack of productivity, lack of scientific advancement, etc. >

{ Grins large at this }

It easiest to appear stupid by making broad statements, and I had to go and buck a cultural axiom on top of it, i.e. 'mankind is superior to the animals'.
This however was a much subtler point than I expected.
I have Population tied strongly to the Tech-Tree.
The basic idea is a Population spike w/o infrastructure to support it is gonna die off.
Famine, disease, civil unrest...
There was this game Civilization.
Not the Sid Meier's computer product, this was an Avalon Hill joint.
Different "geographical" regions have different levels of production given as a number of population counters the region can support per turn.
(Come to think of it that one had a timeline too..., my head is a SCARRY place!)
Counters exceeding the support number in a region had to be "reduced" at the end of the turn, and yes combat was one way to "burn" extra counters.
(Building things was another.)
I'm playing around with "happiness" equations right now and this "jealousy factor" you point out makes me wonder.
I have been attempting to express something like this with Buildings/Units/Nomic.
Let's say there's a Wizards Campus in town.
Campus = Guild
So, let's say a rival Guild moves in and builds a Campus?
Now the staff of the Campus work together as a Unit.
The inner politics of a Unit is expressed through a Charter that can be modified through a Nomic style system.
Exclude too many folks from the Nomic game and you'll end up with the Magna Carta.
Any "squabble" inside the society as a whole is gonna consume resources and production devoted to them.
Do you think this will be sufficient to address the "jealousy factor?"


< 	In game-writing terms, and backing off a bit on the focus, I 
would recommend two (or possibly more) parameters that describe the 
"health" of a population in mental/emotional terms.

	The first would be something like "emotional stability", 
"moral fiber", or similar and relates to the average citizen's desire 
to "do the right thing". On a personal scale, in a society where this 
number is very low, having your cart break down by the side of the 
road means you'll probably get robbed. Where it's very high, you'll 
probably get a ride to the next town and your cart will still be 
there when the cartwright brings you back with a new wheel.

( In other words the "encounter tables" would shift with the cultures "morality".)

 On a societal scale, the economic productivity of a society would 
positively correlate with this number, due to minimal vandalism or 
theft, not many resources spent on justice system or security, etc.

(More production spent playing Railroad Tycoon, less spent on playing War Games.)

	The second would be "entrepreneurship" or something similar. 
This represents a combination of the educational level and the 
independent spirit and zest for innovation in the society. Higher 
numbers here would correlate with faster technological innovation, as 
well as a higher rate of infrastructure creation, and hence again 
there would be a positive correlation between this number and 
economic productivity. (I could certainly see an argument for 
breaking this further into "education" and "independence". For 
example, in Ming China, education was pretty good (among the upper 
classes) but innovation was *not* valued.)              >


Okay, I'll try to keep this short.
I use a Fame - Fortune - Happiness concept.

Fame seems to be similar to "moral Fiber".
A Figure perusing Fame/Fiber strongly would be following the cultural rules quite closely.
Infamous is achieving Fame w/o the objective of obtaining Fame.

Fortune would be "entrepreneurship" as you describe.

Isn't education in the requirements?
A-Talent to get B-Talent, B-Talent required to get x-Job.

I would suggest that "independence" stems from a "too many players, not enough chairs" sort of situation.
Easier if there's a frontier, but Stefansson says that Iceland was the largest landmass ever discovered by European's that had no native population.
I suppose we don't get to count the Moon..., China may settle her first.

Happiness is a kind of recursive factor.
In crowds, herds and the like, there seems to be a certain "group mentality" and very large groups tend to be more content the larger the number of its members are content.
That sounds like a stupid point, but it's self-reciprocating and can be by-passed.


< 1) *Losing* a war will total your economy. No more factories, no more 
farms, no more infrastructure. Hope you like the stone age, that's 
where you are now. >

One of those broad statements again.
{ grins }
Okay, this depends on where your fighting the war.
Georgie Porgie the Third, pissin' blue, cast the die on the question "submit or triumph".
That war almost broke them.
Expanded trade after the war can be said to have "fixed" the British economy.
Of course "fixed" is a relative term.
What's "fixed" for one generation...
(And don't think I hate George III. My telescope has "Come wit me Archbishop, and I shall show you the way to heaven." Which he spoke leading the Archbishop of Canterbury up to Hershel's largest peeper.)


< 	I don't have a good way to generate rules on this, as there 
are a *lot* of factors (technological advance being perhaps the 
hardest to nail down). >

I'm TRYING hard and really appreciate your thoughts on this stuff.
I think, presented well, this could offer some fairly rich subject matter for game-play.

Uhhh, here's another point in support of your point that the immediate (that generation, maybe the next) aftereffects of winning a war are generally beneficial to the Population as a gestalt.
The green revolution, which greatly expanded agricultural production, was sparked from economic applications of wartime technology to food production problems after WW II.

I'd suggest not only an almost 50/50 male/female (49/51) mix, but I'd say that any growth rate exceeding...
Well that's the rub isn't it?
Modern world growth is something like one and a half percent yearly.
Depending on how you choose to view people, this could be a problem.
Of course certain technologies reduce a Figures "footprint", but...

It's tough to get "meta" outside one's own culture, kinda akin to trying to visualize a hyper-shape.
In an attempt to do so I've been soaking up a lot of anthropology of late.
In the course I came across the following, which hits on what we're discussing I believe...

Primitive Secret Societies - E. Michael Mendelson
" In primitive societies we do not find many examples of secret societies designed to oppose or overthrow the existing regime. On the contrary, everything indicates that subgroups work toward the achievement of a healthy society, conjugating as many separate desires and actions as may be found in society at large. We must be satisfied with the paradox that certain groups are keeping things from nonmembers not only for the good of the members but also for the good of the nonmembers. This is a fundamental element in the constitution of all human groups; a rich life requires diversity, but at the same time, diversity cannot be allowed to run riot if the society as a whole is to endure. "


What do you think?




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