Re: (TFT) long talent/skill lists

[Joey Beutel <mejobo@comcast.net>]

On Mar 7, 2013, at 6:52 PM, PvK wrote:

> True, Swimming, Climbing, Horsemanship, languages, and accounting are all TFT Talents... 
> 
> In TFT though they "use up" six IQ points, meaning if someone knows how to do a bunch of things, they must necessarily have a fairly high IQ, and therefore apparently "be real smart" too. So, how do I create, for example, a capable character in terms of skills, who isn't terribly smart?

Just to offer an alternative view... How many people are capable in terms of skill (and a wide variety of skills, for that matter) and aren't smart, at least in the way that IQ is used in TFT (ie seems to mostly imply savvy while "book knowledge" is more about spending those IQ points on a variety of more intellectual talents as opposed to weapons)? 

Personally I've never bought the Conan argument (the argument that Conan would require X IQ to have all the talents he is portrayed with) because the arguments always seem to misunderstand the mechanics of TFT. One could easily have Conan be extremely low IQ and still succeed at all of those tasks... he'd just need a high DX and a high ST (usually the former). And Conan doesnt' have an extremely low IQ in the first place, so combine a high DX and ST with a fair amount of talent points from his at least average IQ and I dare say he doesn't actually need every talent that one could argue he uses... he can use it "unskilled" and just accept negative modifiers in the vast majority of cases.
> 
> As for GURPS, its skill list is huge compared to TFT's talent list, and a character (especially a PC who is played for a long time in a campaign that gives him an opportunity to learn some skill in a lot of different things) can end up with a very long list of skills.
> 
> Most of these are numbers details, where it's specified exactly how good the character is at different skills, or different aspects of the same weapon (e.g. knife, knife throwing, fast-draw knife being three skills) or aspects of a range of abilities that would just be one "has it or not" Talent in TFT (e.g. one healer has not just "Physicker" but different levels in First Aid, Physician, Physiology, Diagnosis, Poisions, Surgery). 

I like those systems too (not just GURPS but many similar systems) but ultimately I think TFT also works out the same way, it just takes a more simple approach to get there. Note that the additional detail (and therefore complexity) of GURPS is not a bad thing, which one is preferred is a matter of preference (and personally for me it comes down to the campaign).
> 
> Looking at a specific GURPS PC I played in a TFT-ish world for several years, he ended up with 17 combat skills, 10 physical skills, 9 outdoor skills, 8 social skills, 2 medical skills, 6 knowledge skills, 6 craft skills, 3 foreign languages, and 7 area knowledge ratings. He's only IQ 12, and some of the levels are quite high, and some of them pretty modest. If I try to convert him to TFT just giving him talents for the things he's particularly good at, it'd be like:
> 
> Quarterstaff
> Knife 
> Ax/Mace
> Crossbow
> Unarmed Combat III
> Tactics
> Alertness
> Silent Movement
> Climbing
> Swimming
> Horsemanship
> Naturalist
> Literacy
> Master Physicker
> Cooking
> 3 foreign languages

It has always been my opinion that languages should generally be kept separate from Talents, especially if they are learned "naturally"... but lets ignore that for now;

Does he really have all of those talents?

Unarmed Combat 3 is pretty darn good. It doesn't really matter if he's pretty capable in GURPS.... is he as good as master martial artists? TFT refers to UC3 as being at a level that would be considered "mastered." Additional levels of UC are for the top masters.

His weapon talents seem pretty reasonable if he uses and trains with all of those weapons frequently.

Tactics is probably fine though it really depends on his exact ability level because its not like one can have Tactics and not be pretty capable; its not like better officers have "more" Tactics in TFT, so unless he is at a level that is equal to people who are officers professionally I'd consider not having tactics.

Alertness and Silent Movement are probably fine but they might be a bit redundant... like the above, if the master thief basically has just those to rely on (in addition to Thief and Master Thief which do slightly different things) then it seems unreasonable that someone who is just a bit stealthy and alert (but not compared to those who really do those things great) doesn't just rely on a good IQ or DX.

Swimming is probably fine.
Climbing is probably fine. (for both I'd still consider the things I've noted for other talents though).
Same for Horsemanship, Literacy (like languages I tend to play that basic literacy is a given if its learned "naturally" but for things like writing or reading something more complex and actually understanding it I require literacy), and Cooking (though I'd note that Cooking might be best left to dedicated cooks than people who are just alright and making grub). 

Master Physicker... is he as good as the best healers?

Naturalist is probably fine but I'd note things similar to Alertness and Silent Movement.

> What's that? something over 30 IQ points worth of talents? And, it leaves out many significant non-trivial abilities that were earned during play but maybe don't quite merit a TFT talent, or are at least less trained than his better skills, even though he could still beat many people at things like using a bow, sling, broadsword, fishing, escaping being tied up, dancing, teaching, knowledge of religions, boating...

Those are probably best left under the miscellany of attributes.

I think your translation was probably too direct, taking a skill in GURPS and assuming that translated into a Talent, even when in TFT Talents are a bit more special than that in most cases. 

I could be wrong, though, in which case your character was just VERY powerful and talented. I don't use those kinds of characters in TFT often but when I do they usually have fairly high attributes all around. This means a lot of talent points but more importantly of high DX, IQ, and ST, for those situations that the talents don't entirely cover.
> 
> I entirely agree about generic classes and D&D details tending to undermine (by making generic) characterization. 
> 
> PvK
> 
> --- raito@raito.com wrote:
> 
>> I think maybe raito didn't literally mean that the ONLY reason to have a
>> big list of talents is not being able to figure out how to roleplay, but I
>> can't resist replying that it is not the only reason. At least for some
>> types of players, it can be helpful and important to know which
>> characters, for example, know how to swim, climb, ride a horse, speak
>> French, work as an accountant, etc., and which do not know that, and who
>> would not like some players just improvising that their characters have
>> whatever talents are convenient out of their imagination, and/or not being
>> able to remember who has what skill or not.
> 
> I'm not seeing where this has any bearing on number of Talents. Every
> skill you mention has a Talent counterpart. All you seem to be addressing
> is whether they're written down or not.
> 
> What I like about TFT is precisely that characters don't have reams of
> game-mechanic related information.
> 
> I played D&D for a long time. And part of the problem there was that a
> fighter was a fighter was a fighter. You were stupid to not wear plate and
> carry a longsword.
> 
> The Talent system breaks the sort of class-based personalities of D&D, and
> that's a good thing. But the character sheet is just a sketch. Fortunately
> for TFT, it's enough of a sketch to let the character play well, but
> leaves enough room for personality.
> 
> And I like that the sketch stays sketchy. Remember, my model is Nehwon.
> Characters can't do everything. In fact, they can hardly do anything (out
> of a world of possibilities). And that's just better for the roleplay.
> 
> I don't want to play Superman.
> 
> Neil Gilmore
> raito@raito.com
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