Re: (TFT) Re: New Armor in TFT. -- David's thoughts.

[Scott Haley <someotherwag@gmail.com>]

That's really interesting.  Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

--Scott Haley

On May 25, 2016, at 7:23 AM, raito@raito.com wrote:

>> I assume by S Curve, Rick meant a mathematical S Curve (
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function ) and not one that
>> literally looked like an S.
>> 
>> I can't personally speak to cloth, leather, chain and plate. I have worn
>> modern armor on the battlefield though so perhaps have some perspective.
> 
> I can. I have worn medieval armour. A lot. And while not in modern combat
> (as every group simulating armoured combat makes compromises), in decent
> simulation.
> 
>> The modern battle rattle when kitted can easily be over 50 pounds. It has
>> the same stopping power regardless of which size you get, so on average
>> smaller people are more affected by the armor than larger people but it's
>> far from linear due to sizing.
> 
> It's been pretty well established the the kit for a high-end solider has
> varied little in at least the last thousand years. Always 50-70 pounds.
> The composition of what's being carried changes, but the weight doesn't
> seem to.
> 
>> Do I feel Dex modifiers while wearing armor? Maybe, but not so much as you
>> might expect for its bulk and weight. Slight limits to arm movement and
>> torso bending.
> 
> I feel none at all in well-fitting armour. I think Rolemaster got it
> exactly right. Wearing armour is a skill. That's why I, a fat, slow old
> man, can wear his armour all day and feel no ill effects, while those
> young strong guys are puffing after an hour.
> 
>> Do I feel fatigue modifiers while wearing armor? Yes, very much so. You
>> tire much faster when running, fighting, etc with the extra weight.
> 
> I don't seem to. Then again, I've been at it for close to 40 years and I'm
> probably optimizing my movements. I might have when I was in my 20's
> though.
> 
>> Do I feel speed modifiers? Yep, fastest sprint was exhausting, the first
>> time I ran in armor in training I only made it a few hundred yards before
>> i
>> started feeling sick and pained... Pretty sad for someone running several
>> miles a day at the time. Walking wasn't bad, but anything faster than that
>> you are paying fatigue for it.
> 
> I feel them, but really only because of the weight. I could trot as long
> in armour as out of it.
> 
>> So if you are going for realism and have a game with fatigue attributes,
>> I'd look there and at MA as your primary armor penalties personally. At
>> least, based on more modern armor. But I think wearing weights is perhaps
>> universal in terms of its impacts. Do older armors also impact Dex?
>> Comparing a chain mail shirt to modern armor maybe not. A full suit of
>> jousting armor that covers joints? Probably more so
> 
> One would be very silly to wear a 16th century jousting outfit in a
> battle, and no one did.
> 
> In my opinion, after my decades of experience, any system that tried to
> represent armour as a reduction in hits is too flawed to be realistic.
> This doesn't mean that I object to those systems. It works well enough as
> a game mechanic in TFT.
> 
> The idea of classifying armour by material is also deeply flawed,
> especially in respect to things like DX mods. In point of fact,
> well-fitting plate is far less cumbersome than armour made of leather, or
> of mail. Don't even attempt to argue the point unless you have worn all 3
> extensively. I have. And at a thickness where leather acts like armour
> instead of clothing, plate weighs less.
> 
> Also remember that Fiore di Liberi wrote around 1420 that he bemoaned
> armour good enough that the rich young men of his time didn't bother to
> learn to parry. They didn't have to. A sword wasn't going to cut into
> armour no matter how hard it hit.
> 
> In his (and other) period manuals, combat was divided into 2 distinct
> categories: armoured and unarmoured. The unarmoured combat used a lot of
> cuts and was done at distance. Armoured combat used the weapons more like
> a pointed crowbar and bore much more resemblance to wrestling (though
> understand that that conept of wrestling involved breaking arms and such).
> I'm glossing over a lot, but you get the idea.
> 
> For a modern perspective, go look at videso from the Battle of Nations or
> the Armored Combat League. Full speed, full power, steel weapons. And they
> aren't even close to killing each other. Yes, they don't allow the use of
> the point. Because that's how you defeat armour.
> 
> For a reference, here is what I'd call well-fitting plate. This video is
> of Tobias Capwell (curator at the Wallace collection) wearing his kit made
> by Robert MacPhearson (probably the best modern armourer alive).
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNcKolKQ1F4
> 
> It should also be noted that in that period, pollaxe combat was thought of
> as healthy exercise. Check out some of the exploits of one Jacques de
> Lalaing. Or read Jeu de la Hache. That's a manual for pollaxe combat. It
> very seldom uses the head of the axe, and does an awful lot of taking the
> other guy down.
> 
> To reiterate, it's all game mechanics, so my criterion is whether it makes
> for a good game. Not necessarily a realistic game.
> 
> Neil Gilmore
> raito@raito.com
> 
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