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Re: Parrying rules in Thail. -- Rick says "just say NO!"
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- Subject: Re: Parrying rules in Thail. -- Rick says "just say NO!"
- From: Peter von Kleinsmid <firstname.lastname@example.org>
- Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2016 01:05:45 -0700
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Huh. Well it's interesting to hear Rick say he
disliked the Thail parry rules, since my
experience with those rules was as a player when
Rick was GM of Thail, and I actually liked the
parry rules most of the time. I though am a GURPS
player/fan who really likes having active
defenses, and doesn't see them as tedious at all.
In fact I think the lack of active defenses is
one of the main things that makes me not want to
play TFT without some sort of house rule for them.
So when Rick was GM, he was doing all the rolling
and calculating, but I did study the rules,
which I now forget, but I remember they felt
surprisingly somewhat similar to how GURPS feels
- that is, the people with some DX or skill would
have more chance to defeat incoming attacks.
Where I thought it broke down was with the
high-powered elite fighting talents, which IIRC
added dice to your defense, which seemed to me to
add a kind of level system on top of everything,
but only for the relatively few elite people who
had them at all, because they were fairly tough
to get. I do agree with Thomas though that it
felt broken when the elite guys showed up, and
yeah there were guys who were clearly a couple of
notches above most everyone else, but I remember
thinking it was mainly about the elite weapon
talents rather than the high DX people.
GURPS 4e has a rule where defenses go down if you
try more than one per turn, but all earlier
editions have an even stricter rule where you
only get one defense per turn, after which you're
down to dodging (which is almost always harder),
and also you can give ground to get an advantage
once per turn. And various things can affect
defenses too, such as facing, using a flail, and
feinting. I almost never see boring parry-fests -
it tends to indicate novice play - if two
opponents are good enough to have high parries,
then they have better things to do than just do a vanilla attack each turn.
At 05:18 PM 9/30/2016, Thomas Fulmer wrote:
I was mostly throwing them out as an example of
the dice bidding like was being discussed in the note I responded to.
I didn't mind them as much as you, it was just
another mechanic that had to be taken into
account for me. With that said, I do think that it had major scaling issues.Â
While, <=40 attribute characters it added an
occasional dramatic save and an additional
theatric attack vector (higher dice attacks),
once you started talking about > 40 attribute
fighters you started to have problems. Once you
are at a dex where a 5 vs DX roll becomes
trivial, then you are nearly invulnerable to
starting players who can't ever count on a 4d
attack succeeding. This always resulted in
campaign issues when the party came up against
"boss" level characters where only the most
advanced character or two had a chance of scoring melee hits.
I think GURPS has a mechanic where after the
first parry/dodge/whatever you are at additional
penalties for each subsequent dodge/defend/parry
in the same turn. That might be a good way to address the issue.
This is, of course, if you actually want to
introduce parry/defense into TFT combat instead of just leaving it abstract.
On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 3:27 PM Rick Smith
Hi all, Thomas.
Â I hated those rules even tho my character (Flinch) was hugely helped by
them.Â I took a very high DX since I was a thief / spy character.Â Dave told
me that the campaign was not heavily oriented towards combat so I took
ZERO weapon / defense talents.Â My weapon was a crowbar, since clubs
didn't require a talent.
Â It turns out that Dave's campaign was huge for fights.Â I was hosed right?
Â No.Â I had DX.
Â In combat, my character could not be hit.Â I became a combat monster,
who was far more capable than characters with more attributes than me
who took many combat talents, and had armor.
Â One thing I like about TFT was that the three attributes were about equal
in importance.Â Dave's rules totally broke that.
Â Additionally he had talents which made the situation worse.Â I would have
been less put out about the rules, if NO talents modified the parrying rules.
(Now it could be argued that better design of the talents might have made
the situation better rather than worse - which is a fair point.Â But I would
hardly hold up Dave's Thail campaign as an exemplar of parrying in TFT
Â Warm regards,
On 2016-09-30, at 12:05 PM, Thomas Fulmer wrote:
> Dave Seagraves has a fairly well developed
set of Parry Rules. The attacker chooses the
number of dice to roll to hit (min 3). The
defender rolls two dice more than the attacker
to parry. Some of the advanced weapons talents
give bonus dex to parry ratings to make it
easier for higher talented fighters to parry.
> So if you are attacking a high dex figure,
you have to make "complex attacks" of 4 vs Dx
or 5 vs Dx in order to get them up to a high
enough number of dice to make them have a
chance of missing their parry (6 vs Dex and 7 vs Dex in these examples).
> I think people who have played under the
rules have mixed reviews overall, but I found
them relatively easy to understand and use. It
definitely biases the combat system towards dex
heavy characters though. It's not enough to be
strong and have a big weapon if the thief can
parry you 99% of the time with his short sword.
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