Re: Limit on # of figures in HTH?

[PvK <pvk@oz.net>]

I agree that HTH could be made more interesting and realistic, but of 
course there's the detail vs complexity trade-off, where I tend to 
favor realism more than many here.

In this list's history there have been suggested HTH house rules,
often replacing the generic 1-die roll to enter HTH.

I would recommend taking a look at the GURPS HTH rules, which it terms
Close Combat, as they are more detailed and could be used or partly 
adapted to TFT. For detail maniacs, there's a whole supplement called
Technical Grappling, too, which is great if you don't mind a lot of
crunchy rules complexity, but would be absolute overkill for people
who prefer the crunch level of TFT. 

Some of what GURPS does is similar to your suggestions, namely:

* Fallen characters take up two hexes (you can place a TFT counter
on a line between two hexes to represent this, which works well,
though you may want to indicate which is the head vs foot hex. I
find I can just remember though, or just do without thinking 
about it.

* Fallen characters can move 1 hex (also as you suggested), unless
being held in place.

* What you are calling Pinning GURPS calls Grappling - meaning you
are holding onto someone and so resisting them doing things or moving
away, but it's not a Pin per se, a Pin meaning they are helpless
unless/until they break free, which is a hard ST contest. Pinning
is harder to do than grappling. Grappling is pretty easy at DX + 3
vs target DX, or DX + 0 vs DX if you want to grab an arm rather 
that just grab them to keeo them there.

* No DX bonus to hit.

As for grabbing people who come to hack into HTH, it seems to me
it would be possible if someone isn't too involved in HTH (which
I think TFT assumes people are), but I wouldn't think (need to
reality check or ask people who have) it would be easy unless
the person coming to hack wasn't expecting/trying to avoid it.

In GURPS someone lying down and not grappled could move into an 
adjacent standing foe's hex and try to grapple them, and I would 
apply the standard -4 DX penalty for attacking while lying down, 
so a net DX -1 vs DX to grapple, which BTW wouldn't make them
fall down or need to drop their weapon - there's an "attempt a
takedown" move for that.

GURPS also has rules for slams, flying tackles, strangling,
taking weapons from people, etc. But of course it's full of
rules and rolls.

A fairly simple adjustment to TFT HTH rules might just be to
have a DX contest replace the 1d6 roll, and have a list of
DX modifiers (if desired) for circumstances. Allowing movement
and having people fall in two hexes are fairly easy to add,
as would be some simple rules for grappling versus pinning.

I like your idea of allowing you to attempt pulling someone
around the map.

For the roll to break a pin in particular, it can be nice to 
take into account the actual weight of the figures.

I think though that it makes sense and is historical/realistic
to have HTH be a way to get to use daggers and/or grappling 
and pinning to deal with people in heavy armor whom it's 
harder to take out with weapons.

PvK

--- rob@dolwen.com wrote:

...

Anyway, I don't like the HTH rules and the way they make the map ugly.
BUT, watching the occasional MMA bout, a few things become clear.
Melee/ITL HTH rules make the map ugly, reduce the interesting tactical
complexities, and are also not very "realistic" in the sense of
capturing what goes on in these fights: Two figures go down in a heap
and stay there hitting each other constantly at +4 DX.


1. When human fighters grapple to the floor, they take up a lot more
   than 1 hex. At least 2.
2. Even when on the floor, the fighters move around. 

3. There's generally very little damage dealt out when the fighters are
   evenly matched. eg if you count punches per second there are very few
   over the entire grappling. Grappling is pretty effective and it is
   easier to wrap someone up than to hit someone at close range.
4. Someone walking over to the fighters looking to whack one with a club
   etc could very well be brought to the ground  by an unpinned fighter.
   That's not MMA but common sense.


So here's a few thoughts for modifying the rules, to broaden the concept
of pinning, which is in there somewhere I think:. Maybe others can fill
in the (big) gaps.
1. If a figure is pinned by another HTH fighter, they can't do damage;
   they must first break the pin. Although perhaps they can pin an
   opponent even when pinned themselves, perhaps at a minus.
2. A pinned or unpinned HTH fighter can move around 1 hex, as long as
   they stay adjacent to the other HTH figures. They are still
   considered in HTH. They might be able to pull the fighters to their
   hex based on a contest roll.
3. An unpinned figure on the ground can try to tackle/trip up an
   adjacent standing figure. This action would unpin any other figures
   they are already in HTH combat with.
4. The action of pinning and breaking the pin should be based on a
   contest roll and modified by difference in unarmed combat skill.


Potential advantages:

1. Truer to the spirit of actual HTH

2. Gives the figures engaged in HTH some interesting decisions to make.
3. Add some risk to the very annoying tactic (which seems very dangerous
   to my common sense) of wandering over to a couple of grappling
   fighters with the idea of hitting one in the head with a weapon.