They did. It does not help much unless you like the idea of cutting the circulation to your legs off. Most of the weight of chainmail hangs on the shoulders. Plate is better in that regard but has huge speed (DX) penalties. The weight is more distributed. I actually prefer light leather, personally, but even at the age of 50 I’m still fairly agile. From: tft-owner@brainiac.com [mailto:tft-owner@brainiac.com] On Behalf Of David Bofinger
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 7:45 AM
To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: Re: Armour Talents Did it really all hang off the shoulders? If I were wearing a hauberk I'd definitely want a waist strap or belt or its ilk to stop the weight compressing my spine. Didn't they do that? On 19 October 2017 at 20:49, Tom Ellis <trellis66@verizon.net> wrote: Eighty was a bit of an exaggeration other than for the heaviest suits with added pieces of plate. Forty is more like it for a full hauberk. Still, all of that weight hangs on the shoulders. Any armor that is able to provide protection is going to be relatively heavy, though. From: tft-owner@brainiac.com [mailto:tft-owner@brainiac.com] On Behalf Of David Bofinger
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 10:09 PM Eighty pounds, seriously? I thought full armour was usually about half that. Maybe a jousting suit. People say, "You can do gymnastics in armour," which is true. But the operative word is "can", not "can just as easily". Nobody says, "When I enter a gymnastics competition I don't mind doing it in armour." People say, "You can run in armour," but nobody says, "Yes, when I compete in the 200 metres I usually wear a byrnie." It seems to me that realistic armour would have a DX penalty and an MA penalty but neither should be crippling. Remember that the difference between a guy with DX 12 and one with DX 9, while noticeable, isn't a complete change in quality. It's not like one can run up walls or do the kung fu fly on wires thing, and the other can barely hobble. They're both capable of running and jumping, just one is a good deal better at it. When they're in a fight both may be dangerous people capable of doing all the moves you expect in a sword fight and the DX 9 guy can definitely tag his DX 12 opponent, at least occasionally. Well in TFT that's the difference between wearing a suit of chain and a T-shirt. It's probably a bit larger than realistic, but not insanely so. The worst penalties of armour seem to have been related to fatigue, and that's something most game systems don't like to touch. Plus, you know, drowning when your boat sinks and cooking inside your armour on a hot day. Maybe DX penalties represent typical or average conditions, and a GM should make them larger on hot days (or in tight passages?) and smaller on cold days. You know, that's simple enough it might be worth it. On 19 October 2017 at 11:41, Tom Ellis <trellis66@verizon.net> wrote: Speaking as someone who actually has worn armor, it generally makes you easier to hit, not harder. It absorbs damage but it also slows one down unless it is very lightweight stuff. Think about how fast you could get out of the way if you’re wearing 80 lbs. of chainmail that hangs most of the weight on your shoulders. Of course you are correct. I was trying to ruminate about how armor could affect both damage taken AND being harder to hit (a DX penalty on the attacker). It might throw off the “balance” in such a simple game, though. I think it's not that simple - armour can be penetrated or pushed in for blunt trauma, especially flexible armour - but yes, there's an element of truth to that and for rigid armour it's probably a large element. Why do you ask? D&D basically follows your paradigm - armour makes it hard to hit. TFT follows a different paradigm, that the armour has to be penetrated. Reality is probably in-between. D&D apologises to the other paradigm by damage reduction powers. Some house rules for TFT allow bypassing armour by DX penalty which is an apology to the D&D paradigm. On 19 Oct. 2017 07:54, "Martin Gallo" <martimer@mindspring.com> wrote: Isn’t the primary function of armor to reduce the chances of receiving an effective hit in the first place by reducing the targetable area? How armour should work has become a hit subject on Ricks Smith's The Slope PBEM campaign so I dug up my armour talents rules, I'd be interested in any thoughts. ! Variant Rules for Armour I wanted an armour system that remained simple, but incorporated the following: * Wearing armour is a skill. People who don't know how find it hard to fight in it. This is perhaps an exaggeration of reality but I think wearing armour is a defining aspect of a character so it should be reflected in a talent. * For someone who knows how to use it, armour is definitely a good thing to have. The benefits and disadvantages of armour take into account that sometimes characters will have to fight e.g. just after waking up with their armour lying on the ground in a pile. * Weak characters find it difficult to wear lots of armour. Whereas in TFT a starting character will usually have less ST and more DX if the character plans to wear armour. * I didn't want to confuse the thickness and level of protection of the armour with what it's made of. Contrary to TFT, leather armour isn't particularly less heavy or encumbering than plate, it just doesn't do as good a job. The following talents reduce the penalties for wearing armour. * '''ARMOUR 1''' (1): Requires IQ 7 and ST 9. This is useful when wearing even non-military heavy clothing so it's useful even for non-warriors. * '''ARMOUR 2''' (1): Requires IQ 8, ST 11 and ARMOUR 1. * '''ARMOUR 3''' (1): Requires IQ 9, ST 13 and ARMOUR 2. * '''ARMOUR 4''' (1): Requires IQ 10, ST 15 and ARMOUR 3. * '''ARMOUR 5''' (1): Requires IQ 11, ST 17 and ARMOUR 4. * '''LEVEL 0 "None"''': Represents light or no clothing. * '''LEVEL 1 "Clothes"''': Represents a few basic defences or, more likely, heavy clothing worn for some other reason and maybe some sort of resistant hat. ** Without ARMOUR 1: DX -1, MA 9. ** With ARMOUR 1 or better: DX -1, MA 10. * '''LEVEL 2 "Light"''': Represents some minimal reinforcement of a basic jacket, maybe a skull cap, a greave on the secondary leg at least and probably the primary too, possibly an apology for something to protect the right arm. ** With ARMOUR 1: DX -2, MA 9. ** With ARMOUR 2 or better: DX -2, MA 9. * '''LEVEL 3 "Panoply"''': Perhaps a Roman legionary's kit, or a Greek panoply: protection for lower arms and legs, a breastplate, maybe a skirt, an open helm with a nose piece and perhaps cheek plates. ** Without ARMOUR 1: DX -5, MA 6. ** With ARMOUR 1: DX -3, MA 7. ** With ARMOUR 2: DX -2, MA 8. ** With ARMOUR 3 or better: DX -2, MA 9. * '''LEVEL 4 "Cataphract"''': Something like a mediaeval knight's hit: perhaps a cuirass or mail shirt that covers both front and back, a helm that closes up, protection on both upper and lower arms and legs, armoured shoes and gauntlets. ** Without ARMOUR 1: DX -7, MA 3. ** With ARMOUR 1: DX -5, MA 5. ** With ARMOUR 2: DX -4, MA 7. ** With ARMOUR 4 or better: DX -2, MA 8. * '''LEVEL 5 "Harness"''': The full articulated harness of the renaissance: Lots of pieces and a piece to cover everything. Or something similar. ** Without ARMOUR 1: Figure cannot move. ** With ARMOUR 1: DX -8, MA 3. ** With ARMOUR 2: DX -6, MA 5. ** With ARMOUR 3: DX -4, MA 6. ** With ARMOUR 4: DX -3, MA 7. * '''LEVEL 6 "Joust"''': Armour probably excessive for walking about in, on its way to being jousting armour but not quite completely impractical yet: ** Without ARMOUR 2: Figure cannot move. ** With ARMOUR 2: DX -8, MA 2. ** With ARMOUR 4: DX -5, MA 6. ** With ARMOUR 5: DX -4, MA 7. * The MA given above is for humans. * If the character has RUNNING talent multiply MA by 1.5 and subtract 3, or leave it the same, whichever is more. * If the character is an elf multiply MA by 1.5 and subtract 3. * A dwarf's MA is the human MA, plus 7, halved. So an elf with RUNNING and no armour has MA 10 becomes 12 with RUNNING, becomes 15 for being an elf.
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