Re: (TFT) Converting Dungeons and Droolers...

["Anthony Merlock" <amerlock@execpc.com>]

Oooh!  Flame-bait!!! Yipee! I haven't been in a good flame war in days!

Hmm.  Lets see.... If I were looking for a class-based RPG that emphasized
combat and dice rolling over role-playing, TFT would be high on my list!
After all, your TFT character is either a Hero or a Wizard - two distinct
classes that directly and permanently affect your character development.  Of
course, all games with classes subtly enforce a 'winning' mentality, which
means that no one who plays these class-based games is capable of actually
role-playing, right?

Quite frankly, how much role-playing is required for Death Test, DT2, TSD,
Orb Quest, Grail Quest, or even Tollenkar's Lair?

TFT is simply two tactical board games with some role-playing rules thrown on
to make it marketable as a RPG.  Very much like Warhammer Quest, or D&D
(which was originally merely Chainmail with some role-playing rules thrown
on to make it marketable as a RPG).  The big difference is that D&D has
evolved over the years, and TFT is still TFT (unless you count GURPS as an
evolution of TFT, which I hate to do because I strongly dislike GURPS for
various reasons).

[note: at this point I feel compelled to say that I love TFT - it ranks up
in my top 3 favorite games, along with Classic Traveller and Ars Magica.
However, that doesn't change what it is.]

It's all in how you play it.  Some people can't role-play to save their
lives.  Some people hate the thought of dice determining the outcome of their
character's actions at all.  I can run both types with both TFT *and* D&D,
and as long as the two don't mix beyond their tolerance ratio, things go
well (assuming people's irrational prejudices don't get in the way).

My point?  I guess it would be that the player's and the GM define the game,
not the rules, and it's far easier to avoid the rules and get to the
role-playing if everyone knows the rules well.

BTW: I came very close to converting my D&D group to TFT; however, a couple
of the players got their hands on D&D 3e, and begged to go that route
instead.  Since the campaign is as much theirs as it is mine, and I was
outnumbered, I relented.

Now that I'm off the soapbox, you could always try this route to lure
stereotypical D&D players to TFT:

Find out what type of adventures they like to play (typically, a dungeon
crawl with lots of monsters to bash and treasure to find), and write up a
couple adventures that emulate that using TFT.  Make the adventures incredibly 
easy, so that there's no chance of failure (and, you probably have to throw
in great rewards, too).  Run that game with other TFT players in sight of
the D&D people, and have a great time.  Laugh a lot, and whenever anything
goes the party's way, shouts of 'Yes! We rule!' should ring out.  This should
get their attention.  If anyone seems interested, ask them to join in,
provide a good character, and let them become the centerpoint of the 
adventure.  If they buy in, start moving role-playing more to the forefront
of the campaign - go slowly, or you might scare them.  Teach them to role-play
rather than roll-play, and you might have a convert for life.

Or, you could run them thru Death Test/DT2/Orb Quest and bore them to death
(true story - I had to end a D&D gaming session early, so my brother ran the
rest of the players thru Death Test.  This nearly turned one of my group
off TFT for life, because "it's all dice rolling and figure moving.  There's
no point to it".  In fact, this person was the first (and loudest) to beg
for D&D 3e over TFT.....).  Funny thing - he was the only person in the
group who hadn't played TFT before, and the only one who didn't learn it
from me.

Just my opinion, and this is mostly a joke.  Determining which parts of this
post are meant as a joke is left as an exersize to the reader.  Determining
which parts are intended to be anal and obnoxious should be an even easier
exersize.  I could have explicitely labeled the sections with tokens like
<sarcasm> </sarcasm> and <anal> </anal>, and I could have thrown in smileys
wherever I wanted you to interpret my text in a humorous light, but I figured
that would make it too easy.  Of course, I could have put them in random
spots, just to throw you off, but it's been a long day and I didn't think of
it until now, and it's too late to go back and put them in.

Tony Merlock

> 
> Message text written by INTERNET:tft@brainiac.com
> >Though, I think the
> Diehards might be a lost cause - unless anyone has any fantastic pointers
> on
> how to convert these people over to TFT.
> (Give 'em if you have them!!!)<
> 
> Let me get this straight - you WANT these people playing TFT!?!
> 
> Personally, I'm perfectly happy with them over there playing D&D. It easily
> identifies them as people who have no clue about roleplaying and doesn't
> give them any opportunity to ruin anyone else's campaign!
> 
> Having fun and role-playing (instead of arguing about bizarre rule design)
> is the best way to attract players in my opinion...
> 
> The D&D rules - even the D&D3 edition (ANY rule system that has Classes)
> subtly enforces a 'winning' mentality. 
> 
> In the same way that ANY generalization (race, economics or any other
> 'labelling') enforces an 'our-category-is-better-that-yours' type of
> thought process, players of D&D will ultimately be encouraged to 'compete
> with other categories'. 
> 
> Only in game systems where there ARE no categories and differences are
> celebrated (meaning a game system without classes AND a game system where
> no one can be good at everything by being born lucky -- ie number-crunching
> correcty) can role-playing stand out as the whole 'point' of the game...
> 
> The politically-correct entendre is mostly a joke, but as far as I can see
> character classes (and unbalanced point-based systems) actively discourage
> roleplaying. 
> 
> Some players actually prefer this. It's doesn't require as much effort. And
> if that's the way they have fun that's great for them.
> 
> But I dont wish to play with them any more than the people who like
> football because of the strategy enjoy playing football with people who
> just like to hit other people!
> 
> Just my opinion...
> 
> Michael 
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