RE: (TFT) Roleplaying talents --> Michael's suggestion: roleplay your armourer

[Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>]

Message text written by INTERNET:tft@brainiac.com

>>>>>   If one player never (or rarely) gets
>>>>>bonuses, would you not say that they are not
>>>>>getting the full advantage of the talent?

Yes I would. But people dont 'automagically' get the full bonuses of every
talent they have in real life either. 

If the player makes no effort to be entertaining or interesting in the
game, then they dont really contribute to the game as much as someone who
does. 

Just because someone bought a talent does not mean that they use it to it's
full potential all the time. We all know people who "could've been great"
at something "if only they had applied themselves..."


>>>>>I guess in the long term it would not
>>>>>be a problem.  If a player is consistently
>>>>>being penalized (excuse me, not rewarded) for
>>>>>roleplaying not up to the GM's standards,
>>>>>then it is likely that that player will quit,
>>>>>drift away and make room for someone better.

And well they should. I wouldn't want to play for a GM like that. The GM
should be entertained by the players, but no than the other players. I
personally think the GM should remain as neutral as possible. 

>>>>>>  I think you should ask Torry if he felt
>>>>>>that I bullied him for 3+ years.  

That's a dodge. It's bullying whether Tony enjoys it or not. All GM's and
players try to find a social arrangement that they can live with and enjoy,
but while there are some groups that enjoy all sorts of masochistic
practices (Hero Games for instance) that doesn't mean that it;'s *not* a
coercisve practice. 

If you both enjoy it on an individual basic, that's an arrangement unique
to 2 people. But I wasn't talking about Rick's arrangement with Tony - I
was talking about a GM's "judgement" of a player's Roleplaying adequacy. 


>>>>>>          I think you are cutting a fine distinction
>>>>>>  here. I am "bullying" my player for helping him be
>>>>>>  a better military commander.  (Of course the sin
>>>>>>  is that I am suggesting a better commander the way
>>>>>>  _I_ think it should be. )

Exactly, you are going from being a "Referree of Play" to a "Judge of Play
Quality". As if the referee in a football game stopped a play and told the
team to play another. 

>>>>>>  However, you are NOT bullying your players
>>>>>>  when you 'force' them to roleplay the way you like.
>>>>>>  'Tis all in good fun you see!

This is exactly what you are doing when you are "helping" them play a
better commander the way YOU think they should play!

>>>>>>          Just for argument, what happened in your
>>>>>>  campaign when you got a player who didn't role
>>>>>>  play the way you want?  

I dont' particularly "want" my players to roleplay any particular "way I
want". That's not what the game is about. 

I think your talking semantics here. You call it "helping" when you help a
player roleplay a miilitary commander the way you want. I call it bullying
and coercion. 

For me they are both the same. You have broken the 'illusion' that the
players have free will by interjecting your own artistic tastes on the
players behavior. 

Whether or not any indivudal group of players finds it acceptable is
irrelevant to a general discussion. If we need to talk about your
particular group - I need to play in it before discussing it. 

But I'm talking about roleplaying and TFT in general. At which point what
happens in your particular gaming group is *illustrative* but not "proof".
No offense, but I know plently of crappy GM's who have been crappy GM's for
20 years. And the players put up with it because there are very few good
GM's.

I don't personally think you are a crappy GM, but that's not my point. This
was never meant to be a discussion about the quality of your particular
GMing (or mine). 

I thought this was a discussion about how much the player's behavior should
affect the use of their game mechanic Talents. 

The previous discussion is not interesting to me. I'll decide how I like
your GMing after I've played in your games and then I'll be glad to talk to
you about it. 

The latter discussion is interesting to me. I've found it's one of the most
difficult parts of GMing. 

My point is that whether you call it "bullying" or "helping" when you judge
the quality of a player's roleplaying based on the Talents they bought
rather than the behavior of the characters you lower the quality of the
roleplaying, IMHO. 

Michael 
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