RE: (TFT) d20 TFT Battle Report --> Rick's comments.

["rsmith" <rsmith@lightspeed.ca>]

Hi Ty,
	My comments interleaved below, I've
spent more time talking about the poor
elements of TFT d20, not because I think
that it deserves this amount of a put
down, but because I think that no-one has
commented on these aspects yet.  Anyway,
see below:

-----Original Message-----
From: tft-owner@brainiac.com [mailto:tft-owner@brainiac.com]On Behalf Of
Ty Beard
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 7:48 PM
To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: (TFT) d20 TFT Battle Report

>Ran a number of d20 TFT battles today (a series of 2 on 2 gladiatorial
>bouts, with a grand battle at the end). Played well and standard Melee
>tactics seemed to work well. Some observations:
>
>1. Very low AdjDX characters appeared (AdjDX 6 was the lowest serious
>character). But because the d20 allows even these to be effective, they did
>okay.
>
>2. After each bout (4 total), each gladiator got an attribute point to add.
>The players appeared to choose DX a bit more than half the time -- say 60%.
>This compares favorably with past experience where players take DX about
90%
>of the time.
>
>3. Using the standard negative modifiers *seemed* to work okay. But I did a
>statistical analysis and discovered that a -1 DX modifier reduces the
chance
>of success an average of about 9.1% (using a DX range of 6 to 15). This is
>roughly linear, so a -2 DX modifier reduces the chance of success an
average
>of about 18% and so on. This would imply that each -1 DX in Advanced Melee
>should be a -2 DX in d20 Melee. Further testing will be needed I think.
>Unless of course, one thinks that the DX penalties and bonuses are too
>severe/beneficial as is.
	***
	Most characters are built so their DX
is on the friendly side of DX 12.  So multiple
DX modifiers will usually move you towards the
center of the curve.  The center of the curve
is where the percentage hit has the biggest
jump.  So I would argue that for low to moderate
level characters a -2 DX penalty or a -3 DX
penalty is actually more than a 10% or 15% drop
(on average).

	I think that the penalties in TFT are
well balanced.  So your suggested rule: that a
-1 DX penalty in Melee / Advanced Melee is
equal to a -2 DX penalty in TFT d20, is a good
one IMHO.
	***

>4. Also, running a statistical analysis on the effects of adding a die to
>the difficulty of a task indicates that adding 1 die of difficulty reduces
>the odds of success an average of 28%; adding 2 dice of difficulty reduces
>the odds of success an average of 46% (again, assuming a DX range of 6-15).
>So perhaps 4 die rolls should be treated as -5 to the roll; 5 die rolls
>as -10 to the roll.
	***
	The way I would look at this is if a
-1 DX turns into a -2 DX in the new system,
then adding a die is pretty much like adding
a -3.5 DX adjustment.

	Just multiplying -3.5 by two gives us
a -7.0 DX adjustment in the new system.

	However for the reasons stated above,
PC's will be just above the part of the
curve where DX adjustments are most killer,
so if anything I would round up to an -8 DX
rather than going with a wimpy -4 or -5 DX.
	***



>Thoughts?

	***
	I think that your rules are cleaner and
more elegant that the ones in TFT.  (Mainly
because TFT has two ways to penalize you where
as your way has only one.

	But there was one advantage to the TFT
system.  Certain kinds of difficult tasks had
different kinds of penalties.

	This meant that there were two smaller
sets of modifiers to learn, rather than one
big one.  It sounds stupid, but humans actually
seem better to cope with memorizing a couple
small lists than one big one.

	And adding modifiers were quicker.  "I'm
hurt so I'm at -2 DX this turn, and your dodging
so I roll four dice. <<ROLL>>".  In this example
I don't do an addition or subtraction.  The
effect is two modifiers but we dodged the math.
In the TFT d20 system, there will be one more
addition or subtraction that must be calculated
for each roll (for some classes of modifiers).

	Also the BIG penalties (Dodging, Defending
UC4, etc.)  Still had small modifiers +1 die
rather than -4 DX.  Why is this important?  Let
me give a sample dialog:

	First Guy: "...or should dodging be a
-5 DX?"

	Second Guy: "No silly, hitting a snake is
-5 DX, dodging must be the -6 DX."

	First Guy: "No I think that hitting a snake
is the -6 DX.  Let's look it up."

	Second Guy: "Let's play D&D."


	For this reason, I don't think you should
have a proliferation of -1, -2, -3, -4, -5, etc.
in your new system.  If you have a meta-rule that
DX penalties always go in jumps of -2DX then
that there is one fewer thing for people to
remember.  Also the DX penalties will be each
significantly different from the next level,
rather than blending indistinguishably into each
other.
	***



	***
	I've thought carefully about TFT d20 and
I think (first of all) that it is brilliant.  It
fixes a lot of things about TFT and it simpler
and more elegant.

	However, I did like the fact that after a
while you hit diminishing returns for putting
up attributes.  The d20 is a flatter curve, but
it is also a less interesting curve.

	(I agree with your feeling that attribute-
wise TFT characters tend to be competent every-
where too soon, but realistically that has never
been a problem in my campaign.  First I have
never hesitated to throw buckets of negative
modifiers at PC's so DX 16 always felt like
barely enough for them.  Second my superscript
rules do a good job of differentiating high level
characters.  Third, my PC's usually have a bunch
of problems that can't be solved with dice rolls.
So in my campaign I was never driven to fix this
problem.)


	I guess my grumble boils down to, if
EVERYTHING is just modifiers to rolls, then
some of the flavor of TFT disappears.  I mean,
when everything is a modifier, and you have more
and more and more modifiers, eventually the
arithmetic becomes boring and you wonder what
you are doing here.

	I think I feel that way a little bit about
GURPS.

	So my advice is do everything you can to
limit the DX modifiers to a small set of easy
to remember ones, and punch them up with good
descriptions as much as possible.

	Thoughts?
	Rick
	***
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