Re: (TFT) Dinosaurs for TFT

[pvk@oz.net]

>>Is Tyrannasaurus really smaller than Triceratops in terms of
> hexes?
>
> No but T-Rex was an upright standing dinosaur so he would cover
> less area on a map (aka Giants) if he was laid out he would
> actually be larger than the Triceratops

Right, but that's what I was wondering - even in terms of hexes? I guess
it might depend a lot on how much of T-Rex's tail counted as part of his
counter, and how much would just be represented as the length of his tail
attack... although I imagine T-Rex wouldn't deliberately tail-attack,
since he's so tooth-oriented. ;->

>>Seems to me that Triceratops would have a very serious armor
> rating
>>from the front hexes (probably more that 6 vs. the base 3), unless
>>you manage to hit a vulnerable part of the face.
>>
>
> Probably correct but the frill on a Triceratops was fairly light
> bone (lots of air holes vs dense bone) with large areas that were
> fairly thin. It was probably more for display than defense.

Hmm, ok, but it's also big and in the way - for humans at least, it might
not be possible to strike at the body from the front, due to the frill,
especially if the Triceratops were concentrating on you as a threat.

...
> Again you have to think of large herbivores of today to figure
> movement, strength and dexterity. For them to live as many
> millions of years as they did they had to have been very good at
> what they did.

True. Though the competing creatures were quite different, and scaling up
creates many physical challenges that aren't as pronounced for smaller
creatures. For example, dogs have a huge range of sizes from Chihuahua to
St. Bernard or Great Dane. The big heavy dogs often can't run as fast as
smaller ones, and certainly it doesn't scale with size, and often they
have skeletal failures over time (hips tend to wear out on some breeds).

I'm mainly saying that to advocate possibilities. As I said, I really
haven't studied dinosaurs in much detail, and am not up on recent theories
or details such as how fast people think they could run.

...
>>* Big dinos attacking big dinos might get a major bonus to hit,
>>  or conversely, a serious penalty to hit smaller targets. Maybe.
>>
> Yes I also believe that a small target attacking a huge target is
> almost garaunteed a hit.

If you're shooting, or close enough and it's not trying to evade, yes. I
expect likely dinosaurs wouldn't evade much except to run away from big
threats, though a dragon might be good at evading.

>>* Inertia rules for big dinos running into things when they die,
>>  clutz up, or on purpose. Some of those herbivores at high
>>  speed would have massive kinetic energy.
>>
> And when you are talking about several tons smashing into you
> might just get an ouchee.

Yep like getting hit by a large vehicle.

...
>>* A re-look at the TFT engagement rules, perhaps making them
>>  more detailed for many-hex creatures, if necessary.
>>
> Creatures this large would not be engaged easily unless the
> opponents take up several hexes in the same way, or there are so
> many as to slow them down. I see the battle scene in front of
> Minas Tirith between the Rohirrim and Oliphants from the south as
> a good example of what we are talking about.(Lord of the Rings -
> Return of the King)

Right. I was thinking though of cases for dino vs. dino. Some mental
playtesting of the existing rules might be in order, if you're ever going
to have dino vs. dino action.

Which also brings to mind peeking at the spell list and considering
effects. Such as whether Control Animal would work, or if there would be
new variant spells. Once victims had seen such creatures, you could
probably use 7-Hex Illusion against them in new ways. Etc.

>>* A re-look at the Shift maneuver for very large creatures.
>>
> Maybe but like above I think it is covered in ITL, AW, AM and
> probably doesnt need much tweaking if any.

There are rules, but I'd recommend thought-testing and/or play-testing
them. IIRC, the rules are to move with the front hex, and turning means
the whole rear area moves behind it, auto-trampling smaller figures, which
for large creatures is something important to at least not be surprised by
as the GM.

>>* Maybe some behavior rules. At IQ 3 and enormous size, their
>>  tactical behavior is a very important factor. There should
>>  be a big difference in the sophistication and variety of
>>  their combat moves compared to, say, a dragon.
> The IQ 3 is basically straight from the GURPS book and I am not
> real sure I agree with it. Most everything would be herd type
> mentallity though very little sophistication involved-
> 1 if it is big enough to eat you run.
> 2 if it is faster than you dodge
> 3 if it faster and more agile than you go where it cant
> 4 if all else fails fight, preferably with help
> 5 if that fails be eaten

Yep, though "go where it can't" is also a preferred solution to 1 and 2,
as well as 3.

I was thinking on a micro-tactics level, though. The player controlling a
dinosaur may be tempted to do clever things when moving or deciding whom
to target and so on. Some limits on that might help. Mature/restrained
GM's may do that as a matter of course, but younger players, and ones with
a vested game interest, may move them with subtle (or blatant) human
munchkin-level intelligence. Rules limiting the way the decide exactly
what to do might help in some cases and/or with some players. On the other
hand, fixed rules could also be abused by munchkins on the player side.
It's really a GM discretion area, but a potentially ugly one when giant
dinos are involved.

I'm remembering in particular a game which I was in where the very
creative GM had us in a location with dinosaurs, and we ran into some
rather deadly velociraptor types. Intelligence in tactical moves can be a
serious "force multiplier", and it's easy for a GM or player to not have a
great appreciation of how calculating they are being when they move their
IQ 3 monsters.

Just trying to be helpful, rather than a quibbler. :-)

PvK
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