Re: (TFT) Doing damasge modernly

["rmorger" <rmorger@mail.ev1.net>]

>Regarding bullets, tissue damage goes with cross sectional 
>momentum, while actual penetration goes with cross sectional 
>kinetic energy. So a big heavy slow bullet is effective against 
>tissue, but not very good against armour.

As far as penetration goes, but unless you are talking about a 
modern type of armor that absorbs the kinetic force, AKA kevlar 
vest or similar, then the kinetic energy is spent in a direct 
force blow, AKA being hit by a sledge hammer or mace at full swing.
Which can kill you every bit as dead as the bullet penetrating and 
bleeding you out.

That is one of the reasons armor died when guns became more common.


>A small fast light round is better against armour but lacks 
>stopping power. 

See above. The reason the 22 is used so frequently for "hits" 
besides being cheap, light, easy to conceal and very common. Is 
that the bullet usually has enough energy to enter a skull but not 
enough to exit it, plenty to bounce around several times in the 
cavity.

<Of course, bullet construction is important too. A soft lead 
<round is useless against any decent hard armour, while an AP 
<round can make even an anemic cartridge a decent penetrator.

Again it depends on how well that armor spreads the kinetic force 
on impact. 



Robert Morger 
Pangaea_TFT Fantasy RPG adventure 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pangaea_TFT/ 
Subscribe:  Pangaea_TFT-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 



---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Charles Gadda" <cgadda@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: tft@brainiac.com
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:28:14 -0800

>Part of the problem is that we are dealing with an overly 
simplified rules
>structure. What is missing is a simple "penetration" type factor 
that allows
>one to measure relative effectiveness vs. armour, as opposed to 
just trauma.
>Note that this should apply to mediaeval type weapons as well: a 
sword is
>less effective against mail than a warhammer or pole axe. Against 
plate
>realistically nothing works well, though a pole axe would 
probably get the
>other guy's attention (as an aside I disagree with the notion 
that using a
>pole arm was nothing more than a vigourous workout; in the real 
world you
>seldom carry things into battle that aren't effective. In any 
case, I'll
>believe it when someone is willing to put their money where their 
mouth is
>and don a suit of accurate plate and let someone swing at them 
full bore
>with a sharpened and functional pole axe. No takers? I'm hardly
>surprised...)
>
>Note that the penetration type rule already exists in TFT - look 
at the
>Giant Spider and Giant Scorpion descriptions. Combine this with 
Rick's
>excellent suggestion made just a bit ago on using a lot of dice 
with high
>minuses and you have a good basis for modeling both ancient and 
modern arms.
>
>Also have to consider that a sword stroke is, on a blow per blow 
(or round)
>basis far more devestating than most bullets. I can cut a person 
***in
>half*** with a decent sword, and it does not require herculean 
effort to do
>so. A 9x19mm round, on the other hand, unless it breaks a bone, 
pokes an
>artery or vital organ/CNS, is not likely to be immediately 
dehibilitating.

>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: <ErolB1@aol.com>
>To: <tft@brainiac.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:49 PM
>Subject: Re: (TFT) Doing damasge modernly
>
>
>> In a message dated 12/1/2004 9:54:32 AM Central Standard Time,
>> eac42@columbia.edu writes:
>>
>> > I'm not sure why modern weapons would need such high damage
>> > numbers.  Unless it's explosive, a round is not going to do 
more damage
>> > than, say, a battleaxe.
>>
>> It really does depend on whether it's a pistol round or a rifle 
round. A
>> .30-06 is going to have approximately three to four times as 
much velocity
>&
>> momentum as a typical pistol round, and 10-20 times as much 
kinetic
>energy. That's
>> going to pump up it's damage.
>>
>> > When I was doing modern TFT in connection with a
>> > superhero campaign (if I can find the notes, I'll post them, 
this was
>many
>> > years and 5 moves ago) IIRC a .45 did 2d6+1.
>>
>> This sounds like reasonable damage for a .45 ACP to me, but 
a .45-70
>should
>> do at least twice as much, if not three or four times as much 
damage. It's
>that
>> difference between pistol & rifle, between something intended 
to stop a
>man
>> (St 10) vs something intended to stop a bear (St 30). The only 
reason not
>to up
>> the damage on the .45-70 vs the .45ACP is if you're taking the 
Hollywood
>> route of mostly ignoring the power difference of pistol vs 
rifle/shotgun.
>>
>> >But it ignored most armor,
>> >and with a modicum of skill and DX allowed for multiple shots.
>>
>> I agree that multiple shots is where modern arms have the 
advantage. I'm
>not
>> so sure that "ignoring armor" is worth the complications, 
unless the rule
>is
>> very simple (e.g. "all guns ignore the first three points of 
armor").
>>
>> >People get shot every day, and survive.  Some of them multiple
>> >times.  Many of them continue to function, just as they would 
against the
>> >more primitive weapons.  After all, a graze from a bullet is 
no more
>> >inherently deadly than a nick from a sword, and a mace upside 
the
>> >(unarmored) head will kill just as neatly as a .38.
>>
>> That's pistols vs rifles, once again. As I said in an earlier 
post, a
>single
>> pistol wound has about a 20% chance of being fatal. And so yes, 
2d-1 is
>right
>> for either a mace or a .38 special. But a deer rifle (e.g. 
a .30-30,
>.30-06,
>> or .308) is *designed* to do one-shot kills of mammals weighing 
between
>100-250
>> lbs. So it should have an average damage well over 10 points - 
at least
>2-3
>> times the damage of a .38.
>>
>> Erol K. Bayburt
>> Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
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