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Re: (TFT)What happend to the Mnoren?

Ran across this trying to catch up on the lists

To: tft@brainiac.com 
Subject: Re: (TFT) Thoughts on Cidri 
From: "David Michael Grouchy II" <david_michael_grouchy_ii@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:43:50 -0600 
Reply-to: tft@brainiac.com 
Sender: tft-owner@brainiac.com 



Nice touch with the German accent there. I could almost see Verner Von Brahm in his lab coat explaining the physics. As to how the Mnoren made Cidri, here is my merge approach. If I may tire out our reader a little more. While this is a topic I can go on and on about, I will keep it down to one paragraph. The supporting evidence is as the end of the post, and consists of three quotes from ITL. 

Cidri is more like hyper-space than a planet proper. It is a meta-domain. By that I mean it is a world of worlds. Any time a group goes through a gate, they should expect the stars to be different. What if they went through a gate and found themselves in a completely different city, but a character with mathematics talent (which includes astronomy) finds that not only are the stars not different, but that they are EXACTLY the same. This indicates that they have found a Mnoren gate. 

?They had the ability to move unaided between the many alternate world that co-exist with Earth in other time-streams.? 

    ?The first Mnoren used his talent only six times, . . .?

?Three hundred years after Jen Mnoren?s first jump, his descendents had found, mapped, and conquered three hundred seventy-one alternate Earths. Three had space Travel; eleven had magic.? 

    -All quotes from ITL page 4

    David Michael Grouchy II

P.S.  Co-exist with Earth ?
     World jumping ?TALENT ??
     Space travel to magic, 3 to 11  out of  371 ?

I'd forgoten all about this post except as this thread unravels it seems that I haven't forgotten about it at all... When did I Peter Pan?
Oh well, it's not ALL bad.

Oh also off THE LIST I grabed this little presicious

> Thorn
> I knew somebody would go there.  It doesn't matter if it oxidizes, it's
> still got its speed, even if it's a vapor, and it's going to get to that
> bottom gate.  Then it goes around again.

>From that perspective, the air itself would do the job - sans coin.  All it
would have is turbulence to slow it down, which would generate heat.  Lots
of heat.  Eventually the whirling air currents would impart enough energy to
the surrounding air that you wouldn't need to turn it off to destroy a

If you assume that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, then a device of
this type is simply 'borrowing' energy from somewhere else.  If it were
borrowing that energy from the rest of the universe - say from the
spontaneous annihilation of matter taken randomly from wherever matter
happens to be - then what you would have is a device for concentrating all
the matter and energy in the universe in a small place.  Most of it would
quickly escape the gate but that's a lot of gravity in a small space.
Eventually enough of the matter would be between the gates that the effect
of gravity from outside the gates wouldn't have much effect on the stuff
inside, but by that time you'd have the biggest (indeed only) black whole in
the universe between the gates.  Gravity takes over at that point, and
eventually it blows up and looks a whole lot like the big bang (if you
believe in that sort of thing).

Makes you wonder if maybe that's what happened to the LAST guys who tried
this trick...and if perhaps it isn't still running.

How's that for a tangent :-)


Brad Thompson wrote:
> > Ouch.  Disclaim all 'real' physics, then.  One rogue madman, one gate
> > pair, the rule set to 'always on', and a single dropped coin...
> >
> > The gravitic center of the planet will move as that coin accelerates to
> > fractions of C.  Heck if you can set the rule to 'on until x speed',
> > you've got as big a bomb as you're willing to wait for.
> Air resistance would burn it away long before it became a bomb.  The best
> you could get was a small shooting star.

I knew somebody would go there.  It doesn't matter if it oxidizes, it's
still got its speed, even if it's a vapor, and it's going to get to that
bottom gate.  Then it goes around again.

> Now, if you had a lodestone and a coil of wire, you'd have invented the
> first perpetual battery...

Even without it being a lodestone, any moving metal produces a field. 
Bleeding off the energy of that field is one way to slow the vapor, and
keep it all from going critical.

You could also put a new gate at mid-point, and vent the plasma
wherever.  But if it's got up to anything measured in c, brace yourself
for the shift in gravity.  :)

And buried in the above exchange (I'm consolidating for the Wiki, sorta trying to gather loose ends so to speak lol so sorry for the shape of that.) is a vacume genesis theory for Mnoren universe creation useing gate pairs.

so you got the Universe.... whatchya gonna do with it?
> So I told ya THAT story now I'll answer the original question.
> Cidri was a mistake. There is no need to have some HUGE world that 
> encompasses everybodys campagin, reality (and a touch of whimsy) 
> does the job for us as so elquently described in the aforementioned 
> novel. All we got was a few widely scattered or burried facts about 
> the designers campagin and 2 two page apendixes. If you dig through 
> the suplemental materal you can dig up quite a bit more but the 
> fact remains that Cidri is superflurious. Not unimportant, but 
> unnessacary. What I've been after is a game with a few tools that 
> are beyond refute. Off the top of my head the big three are DICE, 
> FIGURES, and HEXES. These things MUST be the same no matter whos' 
> world is running. Hexes were the real bugaboo here, they took me 
> years but I finally got shook of the perfection hangup and can now 
> make my figures tap-dance if it was necessary to a story. I've got 
> buildable (and destroyable) cities which is part of an answer to 
> the problem of very powerful characters. Instead of throwing mor!
>   e powerful critters at them, make them conquerors. How many exp 
> in a pop2 village (pop2 = population 2000)? Answer; about 23,200 
> if'n you kill every last man, woman, and child. (That post is 
> written already too, I just gotta learn how to type...)
> Getting too old for this marathon crap anymore....
> I'm gonna catch a quick nap and will get back at it in an couple......
> Jae Mnoren.... I mean Jay....
> >
> > Robert A. Heinlein
> > October 21, 1907 -  May 8, 1988
> >
> > The Number of the Beast-- (ca. 1976, unpublished)
> >
> > 6^6^6
> >
> >     Okay why all the sudden posts and where is this all leading? 
> > Well to tell you THAT story, I'm gonna have to tell you THIS 
> > story.
> >
> >     It was a cold, wet, and windy Wendsday out here on the left 
> > coast. I had made my way down to the local watering hole and was 
> > nursing my second beer when the oddest chap walked in. To this 
> > day I can't describe the gentelman at all except to say he had an 
> > air of antique elagance about him. I can't recall his height, 
> > build, eye or hair colour, nor anything he wore. I have only that 
> > warm kinda memory associated with a stimulateing evening in the 
> > pressence of good company. I DO remember the conversation 
> > however, at least the part that mattered to me. You see somehow 
> > the conversation wraped around to RPGs' and you get me talkin 
> > games and it's gonna go to TFT pretty quick. Me, having a bit of 
> > a buzz I decide to toss out the Mnoren bit,
> >
> > 'what do YOU think happend to them?'.
> >
> > 'They left' he said, very matter of factly.
> >
> > 'How can you be so sure?' says I, a bit incredulus at the 
> > finallity of the response.
> >
> > 'First they were found and then they found something.' he 
> > answered with authority.
> >
> > At this point I ordered another round. After the barkeep fetched 
> > us fresh pints I had managed to formulate my next insightful 
> > question,
> >
> > 'Do what?' I wittily queried.
> >
> > 'It was your world that did it actually, first Steve Jackson 
> > idenified the Mnoren presence here and published the fact in 
> > 1977. Mnoren (in general) don't prefer to be public. There's 
> > always some yahoo that's got to give it a try so to speak, so 
> > it's best not to advertise. A bit more that a year later he did 
> > it.'
> >
> > 'Who? Who did what?'
> >
> > 'Why the greatest writer to ever apper on the 371 immages.'
> >
> > 'Huh?' I could tell my witty reparte was intreguing him.
> >
> > 'Have you not heard of Robert A. Heinlein?' he asked, raising an eyebrow.
> >
> > 'OH YEAH! He's GREAT!'
> >
> > 'Have you read "The Number of the Beast"?' he asked?
> >
> > 'Umm, the time travel one?'
> >
> > 'Not simplly "time travel" but travel between spectulative worlds.'
> >
> > 'Ahhhhh, I get it!' I said, not getting it at all.
> >
> > His eyes got a far away look, 'We were so wraped up in the 
> > alternate earths that we never even considered the possability of 
> > travel to fantasy worlds...' he sighed.
> >
> > His voice trailed off at this point and I called for another 
> > round. Determined to argue I brought to bear my best arguments as 
> > to the impossability of a Cidri only to be rebuffed with a 
> > possable solution time and again. Heavy metal gravity tugs to 
> > hold the thing together and warm it via radiation from the 
> > inside, white dwarfs in sequince orbiting to give 12hr day/night 
> > cycle, electiptical orbits help simulate seasons... just a whole 
> > bunch of stuff we were discussing but a thought suddenly (some 
> > may say finally) struck me...
> >
> > 'Woah, woah, WOAH!', says I, 'Just a while back.... back... you 
> > know, back a few minunets ago.... did you sa WE?'
> >
> > 'Excuse me?' he asked, a bit startled.
> >
> > 'I'm pretty sure that YOU just sa.....i.......d....w
> >
> > I don't quite know how I made it home that evening but maybe he 
> > didn't take into account HOW into TFT I was. Maybe that's why I 
> > can still dream about that conversation. Maybe that's why I can 
> > still remember?
> >
> >
> > Jay

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