Re: (TFT) Raw Text,Talents & Tech

[pvk@oz.net]

Yes, you are making lot of sense to me, and if you wrote me that 15-20
years ago, I would likely have joined your deliberations in great detail.
At the moment, I'm just very interested and tempted, and will take a
momentary dip at this point.

And, if/when I get around to a certain game design I have had in mind to
complete (an event which may take a year or more to unfold, and might
never happen), I may re-read all of your posts and want to discuss things
in detail.

Meanwhile, it occurs to me that you're doing things like I did when I
started looking for ways to expand TFT, and a few years later, when
developing GURPS into GURPS + various house rules and imports.

I think I asked you if you'd given GURPS a try, but I don't remember if I
really did, or what you replied, sorry. It'd just come down to playstyle -
maybe you're satisfied with the level of detail in TFT combat and
characters, but want more detailed campaign-level rules? (That can be just
a rhetorical question - I think you've discussed that with the list a few
times and I just don't remember what I read or skipped.) I ask it
(rhetorically) because otherwise, or even so, I think you might profit
from reading the GURPS advanced combat rules (any edition), even if just
to pick up snippets of concepts and possible rules mechanics for them.
GURPS advanced combat is thick with detailed rules scattered between
sections and squirreled away in sidebars.

And one point that comes to mind is with mace quality, believe it or not,
which is what prompted this unnecessarily verbose and rambling
interjection.

Specifically, GURPS weapon quality levels have different effects depending
on the type of weapon, for reasons which make sense (if you are interested
in having your game work similar to how the real world works). Blunt
weapons like maces, after all, are mainly about solidly pounding someone
with a dense weight on a lever, which can be done with rock/stick/cord
about as effectively as with forged steel (it's more about how heavy a
weight the fighter even wants). So, impact pretty much doesn't increase
with tech level or weapon quality, unless you take your weapon system to
greater detail that GURPS does. In GURPS, a fine mace is simply much more
durable and harder to destroy than an average or cheap or lower-tech mace,
and it doesn't cost nearly as much as a fine sword (which does do more
damage because the sharp parts are more effective). GURPS does distinguish
different forms if you get really primitive (like if you can manage to
survive the bad cover art of GURPS Ice Age and bring yourself to buy it or
otherwise obtain it long enough to study the weapons table and notes
there).

Now, for an apeshit-detailed game, someone like you or I might actually
want to distinguish form and materials, even length and striking surfaces,
and the skill and success of the manufacture of each weapon. Mainly
because we can't help being fascinated by the details of cause and effect
and are enjoying ourselves. In the end though, it's about bonking someone
with a heavy weight on a stick, and the main effect of such things is
mainly going to be mass and length (desirable values for which can be
achieved at low tech with rock/stick/cord) and durability and perhaps
interaction with different types of weapons and armor (a flanged iron mace
with points probably does injure and penetrate different types of armor
differently than a round ball like most rocks - the questions become
whether or not the difference is something we care about and understand
well enough to include in our rules and/or weapon tables).

Clearly though, this type of thinking multiplies the depth of the
discourse that is gaming by a factor of 100 or more. So it's for the few
of us that enjoy it and become unsatisfied when our games don't fit our
models of how things work in a world we can satisfactorily believe in.

PvK

On Sat, March 8, 2008 12:02 pm, Jay Carlisle wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: pvk@oz.net
>
>> > Stone age maces improve progresively as the materals improve.
>> ...
>>
>> Ok, my fine berserk TFT mad scientist friend, I have a serious question
>> for you:
>> What are you thinking the measurable nature and effect would be of the
>> progressive improvement of stone age maces via materials. What material
>> and attribute values would the lowest stone age mace have, and what
>> material and attribute values would the highest stone age mace have?
>>
>
> Ahhhhhh, this is a VERY good question.
>
> So, are there any other questions?
>
>
>
>
> "Wait, wait, don't tell me" just did Gygax as the 'not my job' segment.
>
>
>
> Okay, I don't know how much folks are gonna like this.
> The classification of weapons IMO is a bit misleading.
>
> I'm thinking to define materals like stone and metals individually.
> No Iron w/o Iron Working, etc.
> Except for trade, plunder, kidnaping a smith, etc.
> Conans sword.
> The Silk secret.
> etc.
>
> These materals already must be defined for buildings.
>
> What you'd get is a range of posable combinations for "mace" depending on
> the cultures Tech Level and the regions availability of materials.
>
> Basicly this allows each weapon to be crafted individually.
> Indigo Montoyas sword, made for the 6 fingered man.
> Odyisus' bow.
>
> I'd call the minimum a Very Weak wood handel, with a soft rock head, like
> sandstone.
>
> Very Strong wood w/ granet head would be at or near the top.
>
> A prototype Bronze head might be considered Magical.
>
> Now I'd say that a Giants Mace is gonna be difrent from a Haflings Mace,
> at least as far as required attributes.
> If we use that relative ST stuff, then the Figures ST determines the max
> weight/size of the weapon they can use (efectively).
>
> Am I making any sense?
>
>
>
> Jay
>
> --
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