Re: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V3 #1159

[Richard Walters <rick.walters@yahoo.com>]

It would appear that you're supposing a few implied premises in your statement.  

1. Magic "works".  Work is a measurement found within physics and is based on the metaphysicial system of the moment.  We don't have any evidence that magic performs work.  In fact, it seems to defy the laws of physics.

2. Magic is makes the improbable happen.  Again, this presupposes that we know what is probable by founding probability on our current laws of physics and mathematics.

3. Energy is conserved according to the law of conservation of energy when magic is used to do anything, such as freeze water.  But, magic might in fact not conform to this law.

Let's examine a few different types of magic found in TFT.  

1. Illusion.  Illusions appear to be powered by the target(s) of the magic.  How a mere idea become physically dangerous doesn't conform to any known laws of physics.  But the rules clearly allow an illusion to even kill the person who believes in it.  This of course beggs the question:  "If an illusion kills you in the woods and no one is around to see it.... "

2. Conjuration.  Creating something out of nothing.  In TFT, conjured items seem to only last a short time.  Be it a rope, or a wall, light, fire, etc, the duration is limited.  This suggests a relationship to physics which could tie into laws of energy conservation as we know them.  With these objects, the energy used to create them seems to dictate how long they remain real.  Someone might even be able to put together a chart of easy vs. hard things to create according to how much energy is used and how long it lasts.

3. Summoning: Essentially teleporting something from somewhere else to here.  In this, the object stays the same, but it seems that the power being used simply keeps that object nearby for a period of time.  Again here, energy is expended in moving the object, but strangely, no energy is used to send it back.  It seems that the thing will return to it's natural place when the energy used to bring it near is expended. 

4. Alteration:  The ability to change something into something else.  Invisibility, iron flesh, open tunnel, etc..  This type of spell appears to change the object into another form while energy is maintained to keep it in that form.  When the energy source is removed, the object returns to it's normal state.  This type of magic seems to need a constant influx of power to continue to work.  

5. Dimentional Shifting:  The ability to move onself or another into another dimension or from one place to another either temporarily or permanently.  Since we know little of other dimensions, it is hard to say if how the laws of physics apply.  The astral plane doesn't appear to have the same rules as the material world.  And, material restraints do not seem any hinderance to a long distance teleportation.  But, like other magic, energy is expended and the change happens.  In this case the change can be permanent, making this type of magic significantly different from summoning in some way.

6. Imbue with Magic:  Magic item creation appears to somehow instantiate an object with magic and properties of that magic permanetly.  Some magic items even somehow power themselves.  This strength-battery concept isn't explained.  Maybe the magical energy comes from somewhere and is collected, or maybe grows organically, or maybe it is replenished by other means.  In any event, it seems that magic can be put into a physicial form and bound to an object.

7. Wishes:  Really can't be explained within any system of physics.  

8. Destruction:  There are a great many spells that cause things to break, explode, catch fire, etc..  Magic in this case appears to be able to release and channel existing energies into and out of objects.  Energy is again used, and the greater the energy expended, the greater the damage.

9. Mental Powers:  Telepathy, teleconesis, and possibly some of the other magics discussed already might fall into this category as well.  Like "alteration" above, this type of magic seems to need a continuous energy supply.

Ok, there are probably more types of magic, Necrotic springs to mind.  But, I'm just dealing with TFT's magic system and trying to tie it into physics and improbablity.  It should be pretty clear from the points above that even with magic there appear to be patterns of energy consumption.  While some things appear to defy current physics, others seem quite reasonable.  

In the example of freezing water, the frozen water will only stay frozen for a period of time and then will return to it's normal state.  Maybe the magic involved both removes the heat from the water and then returns it when the spell is over.  This isn't unheard of in physics.  While energy is flowing the object of the experiment changes to a different state and returns to it's normal state when the energy source is removed.  Sunshine on plants might be the simplest example.  

The only type of magic that doesn't seem to conform with any laws of physics at all is wishes.  There's no telling how they work.  But, it's not assumed that they aren't simply magic powered by another, unknown source. 

Anyway, I just wanted to write down some of my own thoughts on this topic.  I hope you enjoyed it.

Good Fortune,
Richard




----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Tapley <mtapley@swri.edu>
To: tft@brainiac.com
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 1:28:37 PM
Subject: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V3 #1159

Jay wrote:

I foresee some difficulty when magic gets involved.

The only mechanism I can see for "magic" working is that it allows quantum mechanical "random" events to start happening in a very highly non-"random" manner when addressed as statistical ensembles. So (e.g.) although it's statistically way beyond impossible for water to spontaneously freeze into ice, beaming all the extra energy out as a collimated beam of IR or microwave radiation, it's not theoretically impossible. You just have to believe that for some reason *all* of the molecules of that puddle decide to somehow make their way to the bottom end of the Maxwellian energy distribution *at once*.
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