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Re: (TFT) 1 point of 'damage' vs. 1 point of Fatigue

----- Original Message ----- From: "PvK" 
Subject: Re: (TFT) 1 point of 'damage' vs. 1 point of Fatigue
You're leaving out some of the math for us to be able to check your calculations, not that anyone here would. 



Hi Peter!
Yes... I'm not trying to be deceatful or trick anybody... rather I'm trying to "edit" myself which is a process much akin to the blind leading the blind or the fool for a client that the 98% of lawyers who give the 2% of lawyers in this world a bad name would have...
I just posted this bit about my philosophy concerning rules vs. play but I'll make some quick notes here.
But also, in your enthusiasm for the common unit of measure, I think you often jump several levels of "what's actually happening" between point A and B.
Always... compleatly accurate measure is a HUGE pain in the tuchus and in the realm of science and not play. Still, if the common measure has no reference at all then the visuals become basicly subjective. I could say Cain killed Able and see in my head a small swarthy man stabing a large red-headed man in the back while you may have "seen" something entirely different. 
C > A isn't objective from a "mental picture" pov.


For examples:
What about how strongly the receiver is held in place to resist the incoming forces? 
Rolling with the blow so to speak.
GREAT point.
Most of these "slow-mo" cammera shows give static targets.
I believe this has to do with assigning pluses or minuses to die rolls with ~+/- 3.5 equaling +/- 1 die to the roll. Being able to quantify somewhat statistically should help make the +/- assignments a tad more objective. 


What about the hardness of the thing applying the energy to a body?
What about the hardness of the body or armor or object itself?
What about the surface area per pound of force?
What about the angles and shapes involved?


Weapons and armour.
Part of the question involves what and how much of certian materials do the players have access to. Recall the flick The Gods Must Be Crazy where the pinch wasted Coke bottle lands in the environment where nothing but softwoods were readally available. So the basic idea with the square-scale-hex is are you placing the force across a surface of a square or more, a line across x squares, or a point in a single square. Depending on that answer and any armour in the affected regions I get some interesting visuals for damage.
I think your investigations are interesting, and the subjects are all interesting, but often when I try to read and follow along, my reactions are always similar: 
1) That's an interesting and relative starting point.
2) Wait, where did those numbers come from and why are those the units and equations?
Okay... I've been thinking in reference terms for awhile now and have no problem in providing more detail in where I'm getting my stuff from. A main purpose of my posting here beyond a "poor mans copyright" is just trying to improve my writing in general... 
Voxels don't agree with unclairity.


3) Weird conclusions that seem off.
Sigh... yes, I can't be an expert at everything... another hope for the "common reference material" tie in to the rules I'd like to see. 
Like the encumbrance/equipment manipulation thing I made a card game out of.
I can take measurments and weights for something listed in a catalogue and drop it into the game in squares of square-hexes.
4) Doesn't GURPS already have a version of this, which is closer to reality that both TFT and Jay's conclusion? 5) This would be far more interesting if Jay would start from GURPS rather than TFT, and then try to get a step or two more accurate. 



Now this hits on my point about abstract play.
As a GM it's my job to provide a clear picture to my players of the environment I'm presenting for play. 
I call this the frame.
The razors edge I feel I must walk is between the constriction of the rules and the freedom of play. As I view it, players will focus on the aspects of play that intrest them most and if I've framed things properly then they won't try to focus on things outside of the frame of play. In other words, frame the "adventure" or play session as a spur of the moment prisson break and issues of plant growth are out of the question so to speak. 
More after your next point...
Recommendation: Get GURPS Basic Set, GURPS High Tech, and GURPS Vehicles. Try to integrate your data with those. Then if you prefer TFT's level of detail, work backwards from there.
Fair enough... maybe I was just too high during the "buttload of buttload" disscussion way back when, or maybe I have class issues... Nonetheless I feel some of GURPS "structure" is more marketing based rather than community based.
For example, GURPS does have rules for explosions which start with force, account for distance, break damage into concussion effect and fragmentation (maybe heat too? don't remember). Also GURPS has concepts which are missing in TFT but which seem the minimum necessary to get from A to B with any level of meaningfulness in the types of equations you are trying to solve, such as attack type and target type, and damage effects for inanimate objects and levels of destruction for human bodies... 



Okay.... I hear you Peter and I really respect your oppinion.
The way I see it, I can take 1 point of ST under my definition of 5.5 pounds moved 1 foot in one second and relate it to one "horsepower" as the 1/100 inverse of the 1 point of IQ to 100 little "cars" idea.
I know I'm pretty stupid, but this stuff matches up well enough to define arguments just a little bit I feel. If I can show your an order of magnatitude off in a gripe then the reasonable player/GM adjusts at that point. 
Elseif we are negoitaing how many die and +/- to the roll.
Then the die is cast and the story moves forward.
This isn't a written story where the author determines everything this is a log of participation thats sum total MAKES a story. In the Bank Robbery secenario it is the GM's job to provide an enviroment that not only describes the physical location of the goal but also can describe more intangable things like the SWAT response... 
Consider this...
A group of players decide to rob a bank but first decide to use a hired group of henchmen to rob another bank across town. The henchmen are set up to fail while the main attempt hopes to benifet from an all out resaponse against the henchmen effort. IMO as a GM what you have as a tool to work with is the police force on this and it's not fair to pull additional cops outta your neather regions to address such a problem. Acting like there's ALWAYS enough cops to handle anything "illegal" in town is a bit like killing a "respawning" something for x-# of gold.
I'm not foresaking your GURPS advice... I owe the deal a stronger look for a number of reasons... I'm still @faebookakie on Champions Online which is free for a basic account these days.
I'd just rather supplement the abstract at the players request... more or less. 
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