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Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
True, I just like the 3 hex rule because of the tactics as well. Obvious
ly I played it this way for years so of course it feels right to me. You
r mileage may vary.
Edward Kroeten
Farmers Agent
7100 Stevenson Blvd Suite 105
Fremont, CA 94538
Office Phone 510-646-1500
Mobile Phone 510-579-0135
Fax 510-438-6875
Website: www.kroeteninsurance.com
------ Original Message ------
Received: 03:25 PM PDT, 10/20/2015
From: "David O. Miller" <davidomiller@verizon.net>
To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
I think it really all depends as to wether you look at TFT as a ga
me
with tactical movement rules, or a real world combat simulation.
You can
come close to both in a game, but your bound to have overlapping
issues.
I think that's what's happening here.
The one hex charge rule may not satisfy the real world combat si
mulation
gamers here, but from a game standpoint, I'm OK with it. In fact
I think
it's a fundamental rule in the tactical movement rules that make
s up the
game. Perhaps our feeble lunging idea is just our way to kinda j
ustify
what the rule was modeling in the real world. As you've pointed
out its
logic crumbles when you apply real world situations to it. But t
o
introduce some sort of realism into the game you'd have to start
with
rules that might include extra movement, weight, mass, getting p
ast
someones guard, etc. And that puts you moving further away from
the
intent of the author of the TFT rules and into HT territory, or
even
Gurps. And I'd rather not go there. I like my TFT simple.
Cheers,
David
__________________________________________
David O. Miller
Miller Design/Illustration
www.davidomiller.com
2 Dean Court
East Northport, NY 11731
(631) 266-6875
On Oct 20, 2015, at 5:41 PM, "Edward Kroeten"
<ekroeten@farmersagent.com> wrote:
> That doesn't fit with actual combat results though. Pikes and
spears
wer
> e good against charging horses and men because the horses prov
ided the
fo
> rce for the blow. Infantry that went up against pikes and spea
rmen
walke
> d up and were able to penetrate the line without too much trou
ble.
>
> A lunging spear is no more effective than a lunging sword poin
t.
There
> is no more force behind it, Force equals mass times accelerati
on. So
dif
> ference in mass of two weapons will be almost nothing compared
to your
bo
> dy and the point won't go any faster on a spear then a sword.
>
> 3 hexes is 4 meters which allows you, if not to get to your ma
x
speed, a
> t least to generate a lot more force. Adrian Peterson (and man
y
others)
> says it takes 7 yards to get to max speed so we are erring on
the
conserv
> ative side of the equation.
>
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> Edward Kroeten
> Farmers Agent
>
> 7100 Stevenson Blvd Suite 105
> Fremont, CA 94538
>
>
> Office Phone 510-646-1500
>
> Mobile Phone 510-579-0135
> Fax 510-438-6875
> Website: www.kroeteninsurance.com
>
>
>
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>
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> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: 01:59 PM PDT, 10/20/2015
> From: "David O. Miller" <davidomiller@verizon.net>
> To: tft@brainiac.com
> Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have always felt that the issue was with the nomenclature of
the
w
> ord
> "charge". It sets up a precedent in your mind that the physics
is
> off
> and that you've got to build up speed in a run, or "charge" to
get
> the
> extra damage.
>
>
> I prefer the word "lunge". The way I see it is that you about
5
fe
> et
> from your opponent (in game terms one hex away), and you throw
you
> r body
> weight behind a sudden forward lunge. All of that force behind
the
> lunge
> is concentrated on a small, sharp point which can now penetrat
e
ch
> ain
> mail, slide off of plate and find a joint to penetrate, or
simply
> punch
> through leather.
>
>
> Once past the armor your victim is then impaled on basically a
lon
> g
> spike and takes a very nasty, deep, puncture wound that plays
havo
> c with
> his internal organs, which to me warrants the extra damage.
>
>
> As many of you know I always felt that it was the doubling of
the
> damage, especially in the two larger pole arms, that was the
real
> problem. That's why our group came up with the +1d6, rather th
an
t
> he
> doubling. It keeps the smaller pole arms basically as written,
whi
> le
> having the added bonus of making the two larger ones slightly
less
>
> devastating. If you start adding in rules such as moving 3 hex
es
i
> n a
> straight line then you give up some of the chess like, strateg
y
el
> ements
> that the game has. For example I want to move first so that I
can
> back
> away from a fallen foe and lunge at him again, before he stand
s
up
> . That
> kinda thing.
>
>
> David
> __________________________________________
> David O. Miller
> Miller Design/Illustration
> www.davidomiller.com
>
>
> 2 Dean Court
> East Northport, NY 11731
> (631) 266-6875
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2015, at 4:28 PM, "Edward Kroeten"
> <ekroeten@farmersagent.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Okay sorry about that I just checked my rule book and we had
mad
> e the
> cha
>> nge to three hexes as a house rule. The reason was that the p
hys
> ics
> just
>> don't work if I rush from 4 feet away I haven't generated eno
ugh
>
> force.
>> You simply can't build up to the speed in that amount of spac
e e
> ven
> with
>> a sharp stick.
>>
>>
>> In that case the only time you would not get the charge is wh
ere
> sword
> g
>> ot initiative from outside 5 hexes, had spear move first then
ra
> n to
> a s
>> ide hex (certainly possible but not guaranteed), and then on
the
> next
> ini
>> tiative roll sword also wins and shifts into the front hexes
mak
> ing
> spear
>> engaged and unable to charge. If using these rules it makes a
voi
> ding
> a
>> charge very difficult.
>>
>>
>> Again I have always used 3 hexes in the general direction (no
st
> raight
> h
>> ex line limit) for charges so getting within 3 hexes negated
the
>
> charge o
>> r hitting (actual damage) them from the side or rear (another
ho
> use
> rule
>> to avoid the unrealistic reactions).
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> Received: 10:56 AM PDT, 10/20/2015
>> From: PvK <pvk@oz.net>
>> To: <tft@brainiac.com>
>> Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
>>
>>
>>
>> In Advanced Melee anyway, if two figures start out not adjace
nt,
>
> or
>> if they start adjacent but one figure moves away and back (ev
en
> only
> one
>> hex) then it is a Charge Attack situation.
>>
>>
>> Advanced Melee also specifically says that a pole-weapon user
> enga
>> ged from behind, if he hasn't moved yet that turn, can just c
han
> ge
> facing
>> and get the +2DX double damage charge defense. Best sword can
do
> is
> not
>> charge himself, so spear doesn't get the +2DX. See Advanced M
ele
> e page
> 14
>> , right column.
>>
>>
>> So in Advanced Melee, there's no way to maneuver around a cha
rge
>
> s
>> ituation even by winning initiative twice in a row in a one-o
n-o
> ne
> duel.
>> In Advanced Melee, it'll be a charge 100% of the time.
>>
>>
>> It's not quite as explicit in plain Melee, but it seems to me
> this
>> is likely SJ's original intent there, too.
>>
>>
>> --- jlv61560@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> I don't think a spear gets a charge if he's actually engaged.
> He'
>> d ha
>> ve to disengage first and get some distance.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
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>>
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