Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers

[Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com>]

Your privilege of course, but you should read the history (admittedly, not 
a frequently wargamed or written about period, and thus somewhat obscure); 
it might change your perceptions a bit.

      From: Edward kroeten <ekroeten@farmersagent.com>
 To: tft@brainiac.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 5:24 PM
 Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
   

    
The swiss were most effective against cavalry they were nearly wiped out to
 a man in one battle against regular infantry. В  Spanish troops 
were not dominant, sorry not buying.В 


Sent via the Samsung GALAXY SВ®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com> 
Date: 10/20/2015  4:06 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: tft@brainiac.com 
Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers 

Erm, I'll beg to differ with you on pretty much all of that.В  I'
ve alr
eady pointed out that the Spanish Tercios, Swiss Pikemen, and Polish Lancer
s (though that last is cavalry and can be discounted for that reason if you
 like) were the preeminent combat forces of their day -- and that was in th
e face of gunpowder.В  Spearmen, it will be admitted, are less ef
fectiv
e in a siege situation than swordsmen (and archers are), but in open battle
, don't discount the effect of spearmen.

It's also worth noting that the cheapness of the spear to manufacture was a
 primary reason why it was, in fact, the most commonly used weapon througho
ut the pre-gunpowder period -- that, plus training a spearman to be effecti
ve costs a lot less time than trying to teach someone to use a sword effici
ently.В  You can turn a peasant into a reasonable spearman in a f
ew day
s.В  Turning that same peasant into a reasonable swordsman is pro
bably 
going to take weeks or even months.В  And, of course, as I've alr
eady p
ointed out, the spear is so much cheaper and quicker to manufacture than a
 
sword is....

And finally, in terms of damage -- an impaling attack is far more effective
 in killing an opponent than a slashing attack is.В  Now a slashi
ng att
ack might be more effective at disabling an opponent, but the fact of the m
atter is that if I stick a spear in your guts, you're a lot more likely to
 
die in the long run than you are if I hamstring you with sword cut.В
 
 

As far as bronze age cavalry goes, other than horse archers, they really we
ren't very effective until the Goths brought the stirrup with them as they
 
invaded the Roman Empire.В  At that point only did cavalry become
 the m
ost dangerous unit on the field of battle.В  Imagine, if you will
, a kn
ight without stirrups trying to charge someone.

В В В В В  From: Edward K
roeten <ekroeten@farmersagent.com>
 To: tft@brainiac.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:18 PM
 Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
В В  
If you look at history the spear, halberd and even the pike were never th
e dominate weapon in the field post bronze age (Greeks and Romans).В
  T
hey
 aren't particularly hard to learn and they are cheap so that isn't the r
eason they weren't more in use.В  The fact is they just weren't a
s effe
cti
ve as the cutting and bashing weapons in producing damage.В  Cava
lry ma
y h
ave been king, but many troops fought on the ground and only a small prop
ortion used spears as primary weapons.
В  

В  

В  

В  

В  В  

В  В  В  

В  В  В  В  

В  В  В  В  В  

          �� 

          ��   

          ��     

          ��       Edward Kroet
en
          ��         Farme
rs AgentВ  

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Stevenson Blvd Suite 105
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 510-646-1500В  В  

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te: www.kroeteninsurance.comВ  

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В  В  В  В  В  

В  В  В  В  

В  В  В  

В  В  

В  

В  

В  

В  

В  ------ Original Message ------
В  В  Received: 02:50 PM PDT, 10/20/2015
В  В  From: Rick Smith <rick_ww@lightspeed.ca>
В  В  To: tft@brainiac.com
В  В  Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
В  В  

В  В  

В  В  

В  В  

В  В  В  In my campaign, anyone who wants to 
use pole weapons p
icks up
В  В  В  В  running sometimes. Make
s sense.
В  В  В  В  

В  В  В  В  Warm regards, Rick.
В  В  В  В  

В  В  В  В  

В  В  В  В  On 2015-10-20, at 2:25 
PM, David O. Miller wrot
e:
В  В  В  В  > Because I can do it i
n one turn. Back away fr
om a fallen foe o
ne hex,
В  В  В  В  > then charge back in. 
It makes winning initiat
ive important to 
fallen
В  В  В  В  > figures vs pole weapo
n users. They need to st
and up first.
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  > In the system of runn
ing three hexes I now ha
ve to back up fur
ther, and
В  В  В  В  > by doing so I can't c
harge back in because I'
ll use more than 
half my
В  В  В  В  > movement doing all th
is running around. This 
changes the tacti
cs of the
В  В  В  В  > game from what SJ mea
nt as far as I'm concern
ed. Unless you le
t people
В  В  В  В  > simply run around in 
some sort of weird three
 hex loop, and th
en charge
В  В  В  В  > someone. Which to me 
just seems almost comica
l.
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  > But I hear you Rick. 
Different tastes huh? Me
, I stick with th
e lunge
В  В  В  В  > concept. It's the bes
t solution I've found wi
thout extra paddi
ng of the
В  В  В  В  > rules.
В  В  В  В  > _____________________
_____________________
В  В  В  В  > David O. Miller
В  В  В  В  > Miller Design/Illustr
ation
В  В  В  В  > www.davidomiller.com
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  > 2 Dean Court
В  В  В  В  > East Northport, NY 11
731
В  В  В  В  > (631) 266-6875
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  > On Oct 20, 2015, at 5
:04 PM, Rick Smith <rick
_ww@lightspeed.ca
> wrote:
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >> I don't see how back
ing up so you can charge
 forward reduces 
the
В  В  В  В  >> tactical maneuvering
 of the game.
В  В  В  В  >>
В  В  В  В  >> If by "chess like" y
ou mean that the units d
on't back up befo
re moving
В  В  В  В  >> forward sure.
В  В  В  В  >>
В  В  В  В  >> Anyway, if you do no
t like people charging f
orward for more d
amage,
В  В  В  В  >> that is fine, but I 
won't play that way - I'
m happy with the 
both the
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >> extra damage from ch
arges and the 3 hexes ch
arges (tho I don'
t
В  В  В  В  >> require the 3 hexes 
to be on the hex grain).
В  В  В  В  >>
В  В  В  В  >> Warm regards, Rick
В  В  В  В  >>
В  В  В  В  >>
В  В  В  В  >> On 2015-10-20, at 1:
54 PM, David O. Miller w
rote:
В  В  В  В  >>> I have always felt 
that the issue was with 
the nomenclature 
of the
В  В  В  В  > word
В  В  В  В  >>> "charge". It sets u
p a precedent in your mi
nd that the physi
cs is off
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >>> and that you've got
 to build up speed in a 
run, or "charge" 
to get
В  В  В  В  > the
В  В  В  В  >>> extra damage.
В  В  В  В  >>>
В  В  В  В  >>> I prefer the word "
lunge". The way I see it
 is that you abou
t 5 feet
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >>> from your opponent 
(in game terms one hex a
way), and you thr
ow your
В  В  В  В  > body
В  В  В  В  >>> weight behind a sud
den forward lunge. All o
f that force behi
nd the
В  В  В  В  > lunge
В  В  В  В  >>> is concentrated on 
a small, sharp point whi
ch can now penetr
ate chain
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >>> mail, slide off of 
plate and find a joint t
o penetrate, or s
imply
В  В  В  В  > punch
В  В  В  В  >>> through leather.
В  В  В  В  >>>
В  В  В  В  >>> Once past the armor
 your victim is then imp
aled on basically
 a long
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >>> spike and takes a v
ery nasty, deep, punctur
e wound that play
s havoc
В  В  В  В  > with
В  В  В  В  >>> his internal organs
, which to me warrants t
he extra damage.
В  В  В  В  >>>
В  В  В  В  >>> As many of you know
 I always felt that it w
as the doubling o
f the
В  В  В  В  >>> damage, especially 
in the two larger pole a
rms, that was the
 real
В  В  В  В  >>> problem. That's why
 our group came up with 
the +1d6, rather 
than the
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >>> doubling. It keeps 
the smaller pole arms ba
sically as writte
n, while
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >>> having the added bo
nus of making the two la
rger ones slightl
y less
В  В  В  В  >>> devastating. If you
 start adding in rules s
uch as moving 3 h
exes in a
В  В  В  В  >
В  В  В  В  >>> straight line then 
you give up some of the 
chess like, strat
egy
В  В  В  В  > elements
В  В  В  В  >>> that the game has. 
For example I want to mo
ve first so that 
I can
В  В  В  В  > back
В  В  В  В  >>> away from a fallen 
foe and lunge at him aga
in, before he sta
nds up.
В  В  В  В  > That
В  В  В  В  >>> kinda thing.
В  В  В  В  >>>
В  В  В  В  >>> David
В  В  В  В  >>> ___________________
_______________________
В  В  В  В  >>> David O. Miller
В  В  В  В  >>> Miller Design/Illus
tration
В  В  В  В  >>> www.davidomiller.co
m
В  В  В  В  >>
В  В  В  В  >>> Post to the entire 
list by writing to tft@b
rainiac.com.
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ng to majordomo@brainiac
.com with the mes
sage body
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