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Re: (TFT) Pole weapons in Rick's campaign - Play styles.

We played with the AM rules straight from the book, so there was a lot of
 disengaging and initiative was huge.  I avoided the charge once early un
til he put his back to the wall.  Then every time either of us closed the
 sword defended as his option which with my horrible rolling made for a c
ouple of long battles.  If the charge missed or didn't cause the -2 DX pe
nalty that next round initiative was huge for the sword.











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   ------ Original Message ------
     Received: 10:26 AM PDT, 10/21/2015
     From: Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com>
     To: "tft@brainiac.com" <tft@brainiac.com>
     Subject: Re: (TFT) Pole weapons in Rick's campaign - Play styles.




       And actually, it made me pull out my copy of melee and start worki
ng throug
         h the issues again too.  I see the attraction of doing it the wa
y Ed d
         oes it, though I still feel it's a tad hinky.  But maybe my lack
 of fa
         miliarity with that specific process (I never agreed with the 3-
hex straigh
         t line charge rule in the first place, and thus never implemente
d it), is w
         hat's leading me to feel that way. 


         Between the "3-hex straight line charge," and Ed's "3 hexes wort
h of moveme
         nt, more of less in a charge-like fashion," I much prefer Ed's v
ersion sinc
         e it seems to me to more or less reflect the realities of a tact
ical situat
         ion.  Having said that, I think I still buy into the "jab" line 
a bit
         more, but having played it out a few times, I'm more open to the
 charge tha
         n I was....

         From: Edward kroeten <ekroeten@farmersagent.com>
         To: tft@brainiac.com
         Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 11:25 PM
         Subject: Re: (TFT) Pole weapons in Rick's campaign - Play styles



         Not at all, and if I do offend anyone that is not my intention. 
         -As a matter of fact I have really enjoyed this discussion and i
t got me
         playing TFT with my son. Â However that may not add to my u
         anding of spear vs sword as he only won 1 battle of 10 (5 as eac
h type).
         One thing we both did though was defend option against the charg
e. So I wou
         ld like to see that simulated. 



         Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smart

         -------- Original message --------
         From: Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com>
         Date: 10/20/2015  9:22 PM  (GMT-08:00)
         To: tft@brainiac.com
         Subject: Re: (TFT) Pole weapons in Rick's campaign - Play styles

         I actually haven't found the debate to be acrimonious at all. It
 seems to m
         e that folks have put forward their thoughts, frequently providi
ng examples
         from history that have guided their personal positions, and that
 others ha
         ve offered different insights.  No one has called anyone e
lse a
         and everyone seems to be working to try and understand one anoth
er's positi


         Are you seeing something different here?  Because I don't 
         for ex
         ample, my exchange with Ed regarding pole weapons historically s
peaking, to
         be anything other than informative and enjoyable.  He and 
I may
         different view points, but we've made our points maturely and po
litely to o
         ne another as far as I can tell.
         Ed, do you feel like we've been acrimonious towards one another?


         Â Â Â Â Â  From: Rick Smi
         th <rick_ww@lightspeed.ca>
         To: tft@brainiac.com
         Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 7:07 PM
         Subject: (TFT) Pole weapons in Rick's campaign - Play styles.
         Â Â 

         Hi all,
         Â  this is beginning to sound like a religious debate.Â
         - Since by d
         all viewpoints are equally valid (or invalid), I now feel like I
 can chime
         in.    :D

         Â  It seems that the main points of debate are:

         -- basic damage of spear & larger pole weapons.
         -- If you want a 3 hex or 1 hex charge to get double damage.
         -- There are penalties for tight quarters for pole weapons.
         -- if double damage is too much of a bonus.

         Those who have nerfed the double damage are happier with the pol
         weapons doing more base damage.  If my understanding is co
         most of those who like 1 hex charges have nerfed the double dama
         (Where as those who like the double damage bonus are more likely
         demand that the spear guys have to work for it.)

         TFT is a game.  I do not use it to simulate reality, so ca
         on exa
         from 600 years ago, tho interesting, do not tempt me to change m
y rules.-
         My question on adding rules is do the new rules improve game pla
y in
         some way.

         Claiming Steve Jackson REALLY intended X & Y, likewise does not 
         me.  If he was a genius, then GURPS would be more fun, and
 I wou
         ld not
         have stuck with TFT.  (Over the years, I've made many rule
s that
         I lik
         better than SJ, re - economy of wishes for one example.  I
         my mental habit that I should do everything SJ's way.)


         As for the 4 main questions above:

         -- I am happy with pole weapons doing significantly less than ot
         weapons in straight fighting.  They get other advantages (
re pok
         es and
         double damage charges).  I prefer that the different weapo
ns 'fe
         different, and have different uses.  Variety is the spice 
of lif


         -- Charge 3 hexes for double damage.  Rather than worrying
         straight line', I used the 'close 3 hexes' rule.  The reas
on I p
         ut up
         with the
         extra complexity is:
         ---- To get a big bonus you should work for it.
         ---- It seems logical to me.
         ---- Variety is the spice of life.
         ---- It makes tactical maneuver more important.

         To my mind, this last point is most important.  I disliked
 D&D c
         you rush forward, then stand still and hack, hack, hack.  
         I may
         have had a poor D&D GM, but still.)

         When spearmen have to get a run for their bonus, they do not fee
l like
         every other melee fighter.  Suddenly it is worthwhile to c
rowd t
         hem so
         don't have room, or will have to go over some rough ground to ge
t their
         bonus.  Walls and pits, river edges and brambles become mo
re imp
         when spear guys need to manoeuvre.  Fighting in dense cove
r is d
         (for pole weapons) than on a flat plain.

         I LIKE terrain.  In even a small fight, I am likely to spe
nd a b
         it of
         time dropping
         terrain, for people to take advantage of or for my NPC's to hind
er the PC's


         -- Penalties for pole weapons in tight quarters.  None for
         but if you are striking someone one meter in front of you and th
ere is a ma
         of stuff behind you and your pole weapon is 3.5 meters long, I g
ive a penal
         I put up with the complexity because it feels more realistic, it
 make the w
         feel different from each other (and variety, after all, is...) a
nd it makes
         the terrain
         more important.


         -- Nerfing the double damage.  I have fiddled with this fo
r a wh
         ile no
         w.  The
         rule seems fine for the smaller weapons, but do we really want p
ike axes to
         do (2d+2 ) * 2 for 8 to 24 damage if they get off their charge?�� 


         ---- The powerful PC's in my campaign eventually tend to get eno
ugh armor t
         they are largely immune to normal weapons.  I like having 
a enem
         y or t
         wo that
         they have to worry about.

         ---- I have been working on making 'a tonne of armor' more diffi
culty to ge
         t for
         my PC's.  As the average total armor of the big establishe
d PC h
         as dro
         this made me more eager to nerf pole weapons.

         ---- I tried distance you charge (up to 6 hexes), is equal to th
e bonus.-
         � Thus
         charges of +3 or +4 were most typical.  (Very close to the
 +1 di
         e dama
         ge that
         a few people use.)Â  I didn't like this after trying it for
         a whi
         le.  The extra
         complexity for a modest bonus did not thrill me.  (Wait! d
id he
         3 or 4
         hexes???)Â  We lost the impact of fearing big charges - pol
e weap
         ons fe
         lt more
         like every other weapon.

         ---- I was making rules for mounted pole weapons.  First d
raft w
         as if
         you charge
         from 5 to 14 hexes you do *2; from 15 to 24 hexes was *3; from 2
5 to 34 hex
         was *4, etc.  While arguably realistic (fast charges shoul
d do m
         ore) t
         his was
         doing too much damage.

         ---- I am now using this rule: three hex charges do * 1.5 damage
, and halbe
         and pike axes are treated as heavy spears.  They do more d
         when s
         as axes. 

         Now mounted rules are:
         From:Â Â Â  Â Â Â-
         - Â Â Â  Â Â 

         Â  Â Â Â  Damage bonus:
         5 to 14 hexes      

         Â  Â Â Â  * 1.5
         15 to 24 hexes      

         Â  Â Â Â  * 2.
         25 to 34 hexes      

         Â  Â Â Â  * 2.
         5, etc.

         I have just made this change, we will see how it plays out.Â
         a 16
         ST pike ax
         wielder (or a ST 15 guy with a one point great effort), will do 
2d+1 * 1.5

         on a charge
         which results in from 5 to 20 damage.  This is enough to b
e scar
         y but
         not too
         much for my campaign.  I think it will work well.


         I thiink that those who like lots of tactical maneuvers & key te
rrain are m
         ore likely
         to go with the 3 hex charge rules.  The big bonus for pull
ing of
         f the
         3 hex charge
         is likely to come with penalties (being able to hit a charging w
eapon, DX p
         for having terrain or enemies behind a pike, etc.)

         Those who like the weapons to be pretty much alike are more like
ly to have

         nerfed the double damage and require only a one hex charge.Â
         BIG a
         to this philosophy is that there are less combat rules and fewer


         I totally think that both versions will work!  I am not li
kely t
         o bulg
         e from my set of
         rules.  My players have been playing for years; they know 
the co
         rules and like
         them.  My players gloat when they are faced by spears and 
pike a
         xes in
         a forest,
         maneuver the enemy in a situation where they are tangled in the 
terrain, no
         t able
         to support each other, unable to charge effectively, and are sla

         But if you like a minimal rule set more power to you!


         I think that the acrimony of the spear pole weapons debate here 
is from peo
         ple who
         have two different philosophies.  They have powerful spear
s (wit
         h pena
         lties and
         exceptions) or simple nerfed spears.  Both have systems th
at wor
         k well
         , and
         neither will convince the other to change.



         So should we be debating about what is right, or what is right f
or your cam

         If you are really concerned with what is realistic I would try G

         If you are
         really concerned with what SJ likes, I would try GURPS.

         Now someone might say to me, "Rick, if you have these complex ru
les, why ar
         e you
         not playing GURPS?"  Good question.  I tried GURPS f
         r a long tim
         e, until my players
         and I knew the system well and could run it fast.  Even th
en GUR
         PS was
         too slow
         for me and I liked their magic system much less than TFT's magic
         - My
         rules are
         arguably less realistic than GURPS, but they are faster.

         Warm regards, Rick.




         On 2015-10-20, at 4:33 PM, Jeffrey Vandine wrote:
         > Your privilege of course, but you should read the history (adm
ittedly, no
         > a frequently wargamed or written about period, and thus somewh
at obscure)
         > it might change your perceptions a bit.
         >Â  Â  Â  From: Edward kroeten <ekroeten@farm
         > To: tft@brainiac.com
         > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 5:24 PM
         > Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers

         > The swiss were most effective against cavalry they were nearly
 wiped out

         > a man in one battle against regular infantry. â€��â
         � Spanish troops
         > were not dominant, sorry not buying.‹â




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