Re: (TFT) Abstraction in game design - rpg design.

[Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com>]

Depends on what the game is designed for.  To use your own example, yo
u're slamming CNA for being exactly what it was designed for instead of wha
t you wanted it to be.  It was ALWAYS billed as a super-detailed "heur
istically intense" game that would recreate the campaigns in North Africa i
n extreme detail.  It was never intended to be a "this is what Rommel 
had to take care of" level of simulation.  If you want that, the game 
for you is Desert Fox, not CNA.  If you want to explore the logistics 
behind the Crusader offensive, then CNA will allow you to do that.

      From: Rick Smith <rick_ww@lightspeed.ca>
 To: tft@brainiac.com 
 Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 12:14 AM
 Subject: (TFT) Abstraction in game design - rpg design.
   
Hi Joseph,
  As a professional designer of computer games, I can say that the art
is highly limited by design constraints.  I prefer face to face RPG's
 
because the players have far, FAR more freedom to do weird ass
things than in a CPU RPG.

  Your point about abstraction is dead on.  The war game "War in
North Africa" had an immense amount of detail.  Rescuing downed
pilots from aircraft, complex rules on water (Italians needed more
water because they wouldn't give up their pasta), etc. etc.

  You could say, "This game details the decisions that the commanding
Generals (Rommel and various Allied generals) had to make.  But
the level of detail, actually worked against this fantasy.  Rommel wou
ld 
not worry about hunting down individual pilots.  Some levels of detail
,
are not only less playable, but actually break the fantasy that the
designer is trying to create.

  Abstraction is a key (perhaps the key) element that designers have
to get right.

  Warm regards, Rick




On 2015-12-07, at 12:02 AM, Joseph Beutel wrote:
> I don’t know that this is necessarily distinct, though. I��m not sure that RPGs are unique in being story-telling games that use me
chanics and various models (maps, miniatures, images, etc) to help resolve 
a common vision from several separate creative minds. I’m not sure 
that video games aren’t doing the same thing but using a much more 
clear visual representation to resolve at least the physical components of 
imagination— and even then I’d say only certain video games
 (modern “show everything,” highly graphical video games) e
ven attempt that in a way that is any different from tabletop games. 
> 
> That said I think the overall point is accurate— even if it is ju
st accurate to a wider range of genres than you have suggested. But where d
oes abstraction come in?
> 
> I think the key is that abstraction must serve the purpose of the story-t
elling. While any abstraction inherently hurts ‘common resolution
’ of the story, the concession can be made when it allows the story
 to be told more effectively overall. The most common example I see cited i
n game-design discussions would be designing a higher level skirmish game
— say World War 2, battalion level— where players are meant
 to be the officers leading a battalion. While one could use a highly detai
led set of rules to accurately resolve all of the combat that takes place a
t a 1:1 level, it would actually hurt the story-telling. It does this mostl
y through perspective; our officers don’t know what the 2nd squad o
f the 3rd platoon of Bravo company is doing at a man-to-man level at all ti
mes, and so abstraction is actually necessary here (and not just desirable 
from a ‘playability’ standpoint) to make the story work pro
perly. 

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