Well, I kinda agree with you. Especially your point about Steve Jackson going mum about things back during Howard's lawsuits against him. That was sound legal advice from his attorneys.But far be it from me to claim to know the inner workings of Steve Jackson's mind. I do know him, but mainly through doing business with him many moons ago and speaking to him at conventions. So I can only make judgements based on my personal experience. He does have a bit of an ego. I've seen it in action and have heard tell from others. So perhaps his ego would jump at the chance to redo TFT, no strings attached. But I kinda think it's a pride thing that would hold him back and keep him from doing it. I believe he thinks GURPS is far superior than TFT, and that GURPS is what TFT would have evolved into anyway. So why bother. Besides, I bet TFT dredges up bad memories. I get the impression that SJ and HT were both alpha males with big egos. Sometimes that's what it takes to be successful in business, there's nothing wrong with that. But because of that they were bound to clash, and it probably happened over money issues. One can only surmise that Metagaming had cash flow issues that eventually lead to their bankruptcy. Not sure but I think HT might have partially credited SJ for Metagamings downfall. That's why he was so bitter over it and told SJ to go take a leap.Plus TFT is a bit dated. State of the art back in 1981. Here in 2016, perhaps not so much. Gaming systems have evolved and I'm not so sure todays market would support it past a small, loyal fan base. (For example: "I mean really, I can't roll any defense dice to avoid an attack? This game sucks…")As for OGRE I know what SJ did with it. That was definitely a vanity project. And I'm pretty sure he lost money on it. But who cares, he spent his Munchkin money on it. I always wondered if it was also meant to be a slap in HT's face. I mean, look at how much money that kickstarted raised. There was certainly no love lost between the two men.I also sense that SJ pulled back from supporting GURPS of late to concentrate on more profitable projects, again Munchkin. But now that the coffers are full again he's revisiting GURPS, even doing the kickstarted to support a simplified version of it. So again, TFT is probably not on his mind.And as for rights I have a theory that HT doesn't even own them anymore. When Metagaming went bankrupt all of his IP was most likely acquired by the lean holder, in this case probably a bank. That bank was absorbed by another bank, and then probably again. Whomever really owns the rights are probably not even aware that they own them. There was a rumor that Hasbro acquired them during their buyouts of various game companies (specifically Avalon Hill), but how Avalon Hill would had acquired them I'm not certain.But this is all speculation on my part and just what I think happened. I'll admit that I am not Steve Jackson's close personal friend and he's definitely not spoken to me from his heart. He's yelled at me, and that may have come from his heart. But that's beside the point.So I agree with you that I truly don't know. I'm just going with somewhat educated guesses and feelings here. If anything perhaps this post will generate some discussion amongst us.And I might add that I think 20 angels can dance on the head of a pin. If there were such a thing as angels.DavidPS -- Oh, and I only mentioned the TFT trademark issue because someone several posts ago said they'd like to see The Fantasy Trip reissued. I just wanted to point out that if they did Dark City Games would have to license the trademark, that's all.__________________________________________ David O. MillerMiller Design/IllustrationOn Sep 29, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com> wrote:Yeah, I don't know about that. Unless you and Steve are close personal friends and he's told you this personally from the heart, I'd imagine that line is mostly for public consumption to avoid having to deal with HT, and the TFT fallout situation created by HT. That's one big reason why SJ stopped answering game questions about TFT back in the old Space Gamer Days -- because HT was always there waiting, hoping for a way to "get even" with Steve (for what, I never did quite know...maybe being a "better" game designer or something). I suspect that if SJ were given another bite at the apple for free, with no strings attached, he might want to revisit it just to see what he could do -- much like the whole Ogre Designer's Edition thing...And I don't really see a problem having both GURPS and TFT in your game line-up. After all, companies make multiple games on the Russian Front in World War II, which appeal to different people. As for the trademark thing, that's fine, and rather beside the point; I'm talking about the IP here, not the logo. I'm sure someone as clever as SJ and his crew could come up with another catchy title for the property if it came down to that. They do a pretty good job with things like that.But having said all that, the odds of anyone ever getting HT to shake loose from TFT are in the same range as the moon colliding with the earth next week -- slim to none. For some reason, HT has been a real PITA over TFT and has done everything he possibly can to ensure it never again sees the light of day. (Possibly simply because Steve really wanted it back in the day when they came to a separation of their ways; they even wound up in court with HT suing SJ over the rights to Ogre and a couple of other games, even though HT had sold those rights back to SJ in the case of Ogre -- and had never HAD any rights regarding the other games. HT lost rather humiliatingly too.)So all of this is really a debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin -- we'll never know, because we'll never have any concrete evidence either way.But it surely is a shame.
From: David O. Miller <davidomiller@verizon.net>
To: PvK <pvk@oz.net>
Cc: tft@brainiac.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Dark City Games etc
Hey everyone,A couple of quick thoughts:Dark City is really in the business to provide scenarios that are compatible with TFT, as well as GURPS. That's what they sell. They are not really in the rule book business, that's one reason the rules are free for the taking (that and to avoid any copyright issues). From the very beginning they created their simplified rule set as a basis to work off of for creating their scenarios, to give them internal consistancy (weapon damage, movement, etc.). The rules are also provided for new players coming to this style of game that do not have access to the older TFT rules, or even GURPS for that matter. This basic rule set at least gets new players started. It's always been kinda assumed that the older, retro gamers would, or could, use whatever system they preferred. I know they go to great lengths to keep their scenarios as compatible as possible with TFT and GURPS. I play their scenarios using basic TFT and they work great. (And yes, I've added in my own similar take on their rules concerning skills.)A few years back some considerable thought went into creating a more "advanced" set of rules. What happened was that this simply broke down. Most of us here have probably been playing TFT for over 30 years now and, as you can tell by reading some of the threads on this email list, everyone has their very own, personal way to play. One person likes 3 hex pole arm charges, others like shift one hex and get a charge - one GM wants the base 3 stats, another wants to add in the extra stat for health, or magic power - that kinda thing. And with rules there's always a trickle down effect. You add in one small tweak here, an adjustment there, and it cascades throughout the entire rule set, changing things as it goes. It became fairly obvious that it was an impossible task. There was just no way to strike a balance that would make everyone happy, including the designers!So the free rules on their site are indeed somewhat like guidelines. They are absolutely playable as is, but a lot of us prefer to embellish and interpret rules anyway, so they are left a bit simple on purpose.As for the maps, well, to keep the per unit cost down they only print the one map. It is full color on card stock, and if they included a unique map for every encounter it wouldn't fit in the polly bag anymore, and the cost would skyrocket. Personally I never use their maps anyway. Just like most gamers of a certain age I have scores of miniatures and hex maps. I just use those. In fact making custom maps to game on, along with modular terrain, is a great aspect of this game. (For examples of this visit: http://www.meleewizards.com/photos_dark% )20vale.html Of course this all depends on how you like to play. Do you like cardboard counters on a paper map? Or do you like miniature figures on hex terrain. Or something in-between?Hopefully that helps somewhat. George or Bret are of course welcome to step in here and embellish/disagree with anything that I've said!Oh, and someone mentioned something about Steve Jackson and TFT. There is no way he'd ever touch that, even if he could buy the rights. From what I've been told he's moved on. His focus is on GURPS. TFT would be a step backwards to him. That and Dark City Games owns the trademark on the name "The Fantasy Trip".David__________________________________________ David O. MillerMiller Design/IllustrationOn Sep 29, 2016, at 11:34 AM, PvK <pvk@oz.net> wrote:--- jlv61560@yahoo.com wrote:Well, in DCG's defense on the maps thing -- if you pop open your old Death Test map, you'll see that DCG's maps are clearly a cut above!
(Of course, 30 years after the fact, they sort of should be, I guess! ;-) ) And I like the fact that I get a completely playable game,
right out of the baggie...much like the old Microgames/quests when it comes right down to it.
The DCG adventures seem really well done, but the free sample space-age adventures seem to have two maps each, both of which have very little terrain and are re-used for many scenes which describe settings which should have very different terrain from the descriptions, but they just say to use the 5x5 map or whatever... and the maps are always so small that the one minimal effect of range (being out of range of non-missile attacks long enough to get a free shot or two off) is usually a non-issue.
I take it the full adventures have much better maps?
Ya, it is much easier/cheaper to provide maps than it was circa 1980.I agree with you that much detail for a full RPG experience is missing -- if you check out the forums at DCG, you'll see all sorts of
comments on that, but at the end of the day, what they give you works quite well for it's intended purpose -- a quick playing miniquest.
I would like to see them go in to more detail though...
To me, their best feature is the way the skills work -- that and the healing magic! For the rest of it, I have to admit I backslide
into TFT pretty thoroughly when playing the games.
Yep. I did read and post on the forums. They clearly have a focus on providing very concise simple rules and letting players play or
even interpret or change whatever they're written. But the format is almost a shorthand "quick reference" style, and they don't seem
to realize how much they've left out or left unclear. I think it shows more in the Time & Space and Untamed West rules, where the
combat is mainly rolling to hit each other back and forth until dead, with the only issues being if you are close enough to attack
any other way, or if you can actually block line of fire or take cover (which is always the same value), oh and whom to shoot at.
No range penalties, no hit locations, no body positions, no cover types, no snap shots, no effects of injury, no ammo limits, no
differences between guns other than damage, shots per turn, min ST, or hands required. Etc. Which, hey, I can fill in from TFT,
GURPS, or my imagination, or player suggestions on DCG forums, but it's pretty bare bones.Likewise, CW Brandon's Heroes and Other Worlds is an interesting take on TFT, and he has a lot of support material out for it,
including a fairly comprehensive monster manual that translates most of the D&D monsters into TFT-ish versions (though I think a
number of them are fairly overinflated in characteristics). I disagree with his EN (Endurance, or health, or HPs, if you like)
characteristic though -- not because I feel it's a bad idea (after all Steve Jackson went down that road with GURPS), but because
it only applies to the PCs...which feels a bit "gamey" to me. Still he's got an interesting system there, and he too uses a
DCG-like skills system.
That does feel gamey. I didn't see that per se in the current rules. There are instead some other PC metagame survival/advantages,
namely "karma" and wishes. Maybe those got revised out?
(GURPS has a health score, but it isn't generally used as a way to soak more wounds than you would in TFT. Also in 4e they
interestingly back-pedalled and swapped ST back to the stat that wound capacity is based on.)
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