Re: Armour Talents

You are really dealing with two separate issues here, real life and game play. Sorry for the long post.

In real life armor is heavy (above leather), it is hot (campaigns were waged in the summer) and it is constrictive. As Neil says you get used to it, but it still weighs 30-40 pounds, you still sweat and your movements are affected.

Let's start with weight in real life leather armor won't slow you by 20 percent from you max speed, chain slows you a little more than leather and plate even more. I don't care who you are or how used to the armor you are; in a foot race against yourself your armored self will always lose under like circumstances. In game terms then the MA penalties are overstated versus reality.

Next armor is hot in the summertime even in England and Scotland. Yes, you can get used to it but you still sweat and no one can fight off exhaustion forever. Trudging across country and fighting are hot work, soldiers would talk about men with no experience saying their armor still smelled new. Armor stench was common and if you had a closed helmet that was even stuffier not to mention the lack of vision. Even cloth and leather are hot in the summertime with the padding. TFT doesn't address this (Rick Smith does Woohoo!) The game simplifies this by ignoring it for less paperwork.

Cloth and light leather are not all that constrictive and in reality neither is chain. Plate and scale limit range of motion, so yes you can do most anything but you won't do it as well. Neil says he did fine motor stuff but I wouldn't try working on a Swiss time piece in gauntlets or disarming a trap. Still TFT's penalties are again overstated maybe something like Cloth 0, Leather -1 Chain -2. Half Plate and Fine -3, plate -4 would be more accurate.

Now in game terms reality realschmality, the biggest thing is balance if I give a benefit for free then everyone takes it and I am back to zero.

MA if cloth is 10 and in leather you are slower 8. From there the rest kind of falls into place. Now we can and will argue with TFT that maybe Cloth and Leather 10, Chain 8, and the rest the same. But now we are splitting hairs.

Heat and exhaustion not addressed, probably would have been if TFT had lasted longer. Rick Smith's rules make sense if you want to do the bookkeeping.

DX penalties this is the one that everyone bitches about. They say Cloth -1 seriously it padded armor it like wearing a heavy jacket. Well yes, but if I give it away for free everyone takes it then either I have to make rapiers do more damage or live with the fact all weapons are degraded by 1 hit. Then they say well a small shield and spike shield stop on for no DX penalty. Ah ha, I have you now for Shield you need to spend one IQ point to get that 1 hit stopped, so it is either 1 DX for cloth or 1 IQ for shield. Thus I can't have Leather stop 2 and have the same DX penalty as cloth. So for the game to work properly you would have to rewrite the whole armor chart (as Rick Smith has) or just go with it. I am personally willing to go with it, but if someone used that. The combats will be longer and there are fewer knockdown and -2 dx blows because you can armor up easier.

Now that I am done with my ramble if you are trying to make TFT into reality, you will have to rewrite and restructure a good portion of the rules. The armor rules are a tradeoff of playability and reality they try and keep the system as simple as possible by allowing graded options. I don't think adding a armor talent does much for the system.

Edward Kroeten
7100 Stevenson Blvd Ste 105
Fremont, CA 94538-2485
License # 0E82876
510-646-1500 (Office)
510-579-0135 (Mobile)
ekroeten@farmersagent.com
http://www.farmersagent.com/ekroeten

------ Original Message ------
Received: 07:48 PM PDT, 10/18/2017
From: Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com>
To: "tft@brainiac.com" <tft@brainiac.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Talents

This actually makes a lot of sense, except for that whole paperwork thing... The bottom line is that armor affects your ability to perform DX related functions, weighs enough that it slows you down (and lowers your ability to carry other things), and probably restricts your ability to see and hear in certain instances (since we assume a helmet as part of the "armor"). Which makes it seems like ol' Steve Jackson pretty much nailed the effects as far as TFT is concerned. Anything much more than what he did, and you're starting to look at a "diminishing returns" curve for the amount of information the GM and players have to track versus payoff in game terms.

From: David Bofinger <bofinger.david@gmail.com>
To: tft@brainiac.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Armour Talents

Eighty pounds, seriously? I thought full armour was usually about half that. Maybe a jousting suit.

People say, "You can do gymnastics in armour," which is true. But the operative word is "can", not "can just as easily". Nobody says, "When I enter a gymnastics competition I don't mind doing it in armour." People say, "You can run in armour," but nobody says, "Yes, when I compete in the 200 metres I usually wear a byrnie." It seems to me that realistic armour would have a DX penalty and an MA penalty but neither should be crippling.

Remember that the difference between a guy with DX 12 and one with DX 9, while noticeable, isn't a complete change in quality. It's not like one can run up walls or do the kung fu fly on wires thing, and the other can barely hobble. They're both capable of running and jumping, just one is a good deal better at it. When they're in a fight both may be dangerous people capable of doing all the moves you expect in a sword fight and the DX 9 guy can definitely tag his DX 12 opponent, at least occasionally. Well in TFT that's the difference between wearing a suit of chain and a T-shirt. It's probably a bit larger than realistic, but not insanely so.

The worst penalties of armour seem to have been related to fatigue, and that's something most game systems don't like to touch. Plus, you know, drowning when your boat sinks and cooking inside your armour on a hot day.

Maybe DX penalties represent typical or average conditions, and a GM should make them larger on hot days (or in tight passages?) and smaller on cold days. You know, that's simple enough it might be worth it.

--

David

On 19 October 2017 at 11:41, Tom Ellis <trellis66@verizon.net> wrote:

Speaking as someone who actually has worn armor, it generally makes you easier to hit, not harder. It absorbs damage but it also slows one down unless it is very lightweight stuff. Think about how fast you could get out of the way if you’re wearing 80 lbs. of chainmail that hangs most of the weight on your shoulders.

From: tft-owner@brainiac.com [mailto:tft-owner@brainiac.com ] On Behalf Of Martin Gallo
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 7:31 PM
To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: Re: Armour Talents

Of course you are correct. I was trying to ruminate about how armor could affect both damage taken AND being harder to hit (a DX penalty on the attacker). It might throw off the “balance” in such a simple game, though.

On Oct 18, 2017, at 5:44 PM, David Bofinger <bofinger.david@gmail.com> wrote:

I think it's not that simple - armour can be penetrated or pushed in for blunt trauma, especially flexible armour - but yes, there's an element of truth to that and for rigid armour it's probably a large element. Why do you ask?

D&D basically follows your paradigm - armour makes it hard to hit. TFT follows a different paradigm, that the armour has to be penetrated. Reality is probably in-between. D&D apologises to the other paradigm by damage reduction powers. Some house rules for TFT allow bypassing armour by DX penalty which is an apology to the D&D paradigm.

--
David

On 19 Oct. 2017 07:54, "Martin Gallo" <martimer@mindspring.com> wrote:

Isn’t the primary function of armor to reduce the chances of receiving an effective hit in the first place by reducing the targetable area?

On Oct 14, 2017, at 4:46 PM, David Bofinger <bofinger.david@gmail.com> wrote:

How armour should work has become a hit subject on Ricks Smith's The Slope PBEM campaign so I dug up my armour talents rules, I'd be interested in any thoughts.

--

David

--

! Variant Rules for Armour

This is a draft variant, not playtested yet. Any feedback gratefully accepted by [[mailto:Bofinger.David@gmail. com | David Bofinger <Bofinger.David@gmail.com>]].

!! Motivation

I wanted an armour system that remained simple, but incorporated the following:

* Wearing armour is a skill. People who don't know how find it hard to fight in it. This is perhaps an exaggeration of reality but I think wearing armour is a defining aspect of a character so it should be reflected in a talent.

* For someone who knows how to use it, armour is definitely a good thing to have. The benefits and disadvantages of armour take into account that sometimes characters will have to fight e.g. just after waking up with their armour lying on the ground in a pile.

* Weak characters find it difficult to wear lots of armour. Whereas in TFT a starting character will usually have less ST and more DX if the character plans to wear armour.

* I didn't want to confuse the thickness and level of protection of the armour with what it's made of. Contrary to TFT, leather armour isn't particularly less heavy or encumbering than plate, it just doesn't do as good a job.

!! Talents

The following talents reduce the penalties for wearing armour.

* '''ARMOUR 1''' (1): Requires IQ 7 and ST 9. This is useful when wearing even non-military heavy clothing so it's useful even for non-warriors.

* '''ARMOUR 2''' (1): Requires IQ 8, ST 11 and ARMOUR 1.

* '''ARMOUR 3''' (1): Requires IQ 9, ST 13 and ARMOUR 2.

* '''ARMOUR 4''' (1): Requires IQ 10, ST 15 and ARMOUR 3.

* '''ARMOUR 5''' (1): Requires IQ 11, ST 17 and ARMOUR 4.

!! Levels of Armour

* '''LEVEL 0 "None"''': Represents light or no clothing.

** Stops 0 hits.

** DX normal, MA 10.

* '''LEVEL 1 "Clothes"''': Represents a few basic defences or, more likely, heavy clothing worn for some other reason and maybe some sort of resistant hat.

** Stops 1 hit.

** Without ARMOUR 1: DX -1, MA 9.

** With ARMOUR 1 or better: DX -1, MA 10.

* '''LEVEL 2 "Light"''': Represents some minimal reinforcement of a basic jacket, maybe a skull cap, a greave on the secondary leg at least and probably the primary too, possibly an apology for something to protect the right arm.

** Stops 2 hits.

** Without ARMOUR 1: DX -3, MA 8.

** With ARMOUR 1: DX -2, MA 9.

** With ARMOUR 2 or better: DX -2, MA 9.

* '''LEVEL 3 "Panoply"''': Perhaps a Roman legionary's kit, or a Greek panoply: protection for lower arms and legs, a breastplate, maybe a skirt, an open helm with a nose piece and perhaps cheek plates.

** Stops 3 hits.

** Without ARMOUR 1: DX -5, MA 6.

** With ARMOUR 1: DX -3, MA 7.

** With ARMOUR 2: DX -2, MA 8.

** With ARMOUR 3 or better: DX -2, MA 9.

* '''LEVEL 4 "Cataphract"''': Something like a mediaeval knight's hit: perhaps a cuirass or mail shirt that covers both front and back, a helm that closes up, protection on both upper and lower arms and legs, armoured shoes and gauntlets.

** Stops 4 hits.

** Without ARMOUR 1: DX -7, MA 3.

** With ARMOUR 1: DX -5, MA 5.

** With ARMOUR 2: DX -4, MA 7.

** With ARMOUR 3: DX -3, MA 8.

** With ARMOUR 4 or better: DX -2, MA 8.

* '''LEVEL 5 "Harness"''': The full articulated harness of the renaissance: Lots of pieces and a piece to cover everything. Or something similar.

** Stops 5 hits.

** Without ARMOUR 1: Figure cannot move.

** With ARMOUR 1: DX -8, MA 3.

** With ARMOUR 2: DX -6, MA 5.

** With ARMOUR 3: DX -4, MA 6.

** With ARMOUR 4: DX -3, MA 7.

** With ARMOUR 5: DX -3, MA 8.

* '''LEVEL 6 "Joust"''': Armour probably excessive for walking about in, on its way to being jousting armour but not quite completely impractical yet:

** Stops 6 hits.

** Without ARMOUR 2: Figure cannot move.

** With ARMOUR 2: DX -8, MA 2.

** With ARMOUR 3: DX -6, MA 4.

** With ARMOUR 4: DX -5, MA 6.

** With ARMOUR 5: DX -4, MA 7.

!! Non-human MA

* The MA given above is for humans.

* If the character has RUNNING talent multiply MA by 1.5 and subtract 3, or leave it the same, whichever is more.

* If the character is an elf multiply MA by 1.5 and subtract 3.

* A dwarf's MA is the human MA, plus 7, halved.

* Round off.

So an elf with RUNNING and no armour has MA 10 becomes 12 with RUNNING, becomes 15 for being an elf.

--