Re: Armour Talents

Neil,

I have over 20 years of Fencing and Martial arts experience and History backs me up. Soldiers suffer from exhaustion all the time even now, you may be able to walk around and carry armor for all day, that is not marching or fighting. Napoleonic soldiers suffered heat exhaustion without armor, roman legionaires suffered he exhaustion in armor. Hundred year war soldiers suffered, but you can walk around and say that it doesn't get hot marching, that's just not the case. Weight matters, the US Army has done a ton or research on it.

No one is saying armor is ineffective but the fact is an unencumbered person is faster and able to get to the spot where they land a blow faster and get out of the way faster. It's not just about cut speed. I know you will say experience can make up for that, yes it can to a degree but against a skilled opponent speed can make all the difference to make a hit or not. Now will they damage you that is another debate. But it is easier to dance around and land a blow unencumbered than in armor of this I have no doubt I have seen it happen too many time to doubt it.

I have been in armor many times your reactions time my be the same but you aren't just standing still reacting to a thrust or cut. You have to move back and forth, side to side, be ready to parry and react to a feint all of this with armor and the weapon that gets hot real fast. You may be used to it but I will bet if you do the same 15 minutes of fighting in and out of armor the 15 out of it is a lot easier.

Edward Kroeten
7100 Stevenson Blvd Ste 105
Fremont, CA 94538-2485
License # 0E82876
510-646-1500 (Office)
510-579-0135 (Mobile)
ekroeten@farmersagent.com
http://www.farmersagent.com/ekroeten

------ Original Message ------
Received: 07:22 PM PDT, 10/19/2017
From: raito@raito.com
To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: Re: Armour Talents

Edward,

> Neil, Armor is still heavy and still hot, and with that getting
> past someone's guard is easier in lighter armor or no armor. This is a
> fact unarmored people are faster which results in them being able to
> hit you easier, the counter point is if you hit them they are goners.

I make my assertions from my own personal experiences in armour. Which
cover several decades.

It's not that heavy and not that hot. I can wear my stuff all day long and
not sweat any more than if I were wearing a 3 piece suit. And have a lot
more mobility. I have done so, deliberately. Put on the stuff in the
morning (at home on a weekend or two), and just gone about my day. At the
end, no more tired than any other day, and no hotter.

I work up a bigger sweat these days coaching a soccer team than I do most
armoured practices. (sure, I work up more at tournaments, but I'm also
doing more for longer).

And not any faster, if you mean moving around in combat and striking and
not a foot race. I have done those experiments, too. In particular, around
1990, I got some of the experienced local guys together and we measured
how many blows one could throw in 30 seconds. Both in armour and out. The
statistical variation was negligible. The type of armour also had
negligible effect.

I've had unarmoured people, skilled and not, attempt to strike me when I'm
armoured and they're not (as a variety of practice). And while I haven't
kept score, I didn't think they hit me any more often than when they were
in armour. And that's when I couldn't hit back, even. Heck, there's guys
out there wearing 20 lbs. of stuff, most of it in their helmets. Some of
them are probably considered better than I am. I wear 45 lbs. And the
outcome is still up for grabs in a sport that's to the first solid blow.

More fun fact stuff:

In the early 80's there was a kendo/kenjusutu 'zine from SF called The
Bujin. One article in it was cutting speed. Lasers and all. The fastest
katana-like weapon? The wooden yardstick. The fastest weapon they tested?
Single handed basket hilt SCA rattan sword (though I somewhat dispute that
finding, as it was not tested identically).

But the more fascinating result had to do with the experience level of
each cutter. The more experience you had, the narrower the range of speed.
Essentially, you learn a groove and stick with it, whatever the speed of
cut.

This is why swordsmanship is mostly in the mind. At the top end, guys
don't talk about who hits faster or harder, because that's not what really
wins fights. They talk about who's better at keeping the other guy from
doing his stuff, or who's better about lying about their intentions, or
who thinks several steps ahead.

As for the 14th century, you need to define terms. Nearly by definition at
that time, a man-at-arms would have had fitted armour (man-at-arms being
quite far above any levied troops). Even shovel greaves were fitted to the
shin, cuisses to the thigh. The coat-of-plates that was popular (solid
bresatplates still being fairly rare) also fitted, as were the vambraces,
rerebraces, and spaulders. Even though they didn't cover as much as they
did later.

Now for a story:
I think the last time I wore 14th century European armour would have been
Sept. 2005, in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Didn't fight in it though, as I was
being Crowned. Worked on it for 6 months. It wasn't like I was fighting.
It's traditional to not fight the last practice before a Crown Tourney,
right? But playing soccer is practicing, right? Managed to sprain my ankle
to the size of a grapefruit. I debated withdrawing. I debated wearing a
brace. Nope, too dumb for that stuff. So I didn't tell anyone except my
consort and went out as fought as if I wasn't injured. The guy I beat in
the finals wasn't too happy to hear that I could barely walk (don't cry
for him, he's a great fighter and has won a couple since).

And I had a plan for Coronation. Part of the SCA thing is that during the
invocation of the lists, the combatants are told that they do not contest
for themselves, but for their consort. And mine has alwasy told me that
she took that seriously, and that, while she knew it would not happen, she
would withdraw me from the tournament if it were her desire.

So I figured to put that part into the ceremony. The part where the Crown
asks if you're ready to assume the throne. Worked up a full 14th century
kit with some help from a few friends. Full Churburg 13 breast. Great helm
over bascinet. Weapons chained to the breastplate in the German style
(since being disarmed meant you lose). Crest 18 inches tall. The whole
thing.

Ceremony gets to the part where I and my entourage enter. I have the great
helm on. The King shouts, "Who comes armed into Our presence?" I take off
the helm and reply, "Is it I, the Prince, and it is time for me to have
that Throne." "Then approach, and learn what it is to be King." Then comes
that whole speech, ending with, "Knowing all this, is it still your desire
to sit upon this Throne?"

And I reply, "No."

Half the audience just about has a heart attack. Nobody says no! I
continue, "When your Crown List was invoked last spring, I was admonished
that I did not fight for the Throne, but to put my Lady on the Throne.
That quest is not yet fulfilled. So I beg you to crown her, and if she
still finds me acceptable then she may crown me."

So my (now) wife gets Crowned and calls me before her. And she tells the
assembled Kingdom that she does indeed still find me acceptable.

And for the rest of the reign, we would be introduces as 'AEsa, Queen, and
Raito, Whom she fins Acceptable'. Considering some of the stuff that's
gone on in my reigns, I'll take the byname of Acceptable any day.

Should we talk about weapon weights next? Pretty please...

Neil Gilmore
raito@raito.com

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