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(TFT) RE: Health Stat

Message text written by INTERNET:tft@brainiac.com
>>>>>>>>Harsh Criticism by Michael to my proposal for a Health stat:

My apologies - I didn't mean to be harsh! I'll try to watch out for that!

>>>>>>>>I thought I explained it fairly clearly, actually. Where it breaks
down is
>>>>>>>>in the extremes, Michael. Are you trying to suggest that an
elephant, with
>>>>>>>>an ST of 100 or so, is immune to disease or poison? I assure you
they are
>>>>>>>>not - but if you truly equate ST with HT then that is the only
>>>>>>>>conclusion one can draw.

My point exactly! ALL statistics break down in the extremes! Therefore the
"Health" stat is never needed for 99% of the time - ST covers it perfectly

In the case of the extremes (mice do not contiually die of bacteria either)
you simply don't need a game mechanic for such macro/microscopic parts of
the game. A simple exception for these extremes seems far more reasonable
and realistic than changing every peasant villagers stats just because
elephants and mice exist! 

>>>>>>>>That said, if one buys into the notion that "strength is health"
>>>>>>>>disease gives us a real world connection to test the theory. And
this is one
>>>>>>>>area where Michael's assumption breaks down. For example, I
personally am of
>>>>>>>>average strength and build - even a little on the below average
side. Yet, I
>>>>>>>>VERY seldom fall ill - I haven't even had so much as a cold in the
last year
>>>>>>>>or more. Thus, it is painfully obvious that ST and HT are NOT the
same thing
>>>>>>>>-else, I should far more closely approach an "average" number of

This is the justification I hear most, but *everyone* seldom gets sick. An
"average" sickness is one one cold every two years. When you modify this by
environmental factors (what climate you live in, etc.) this will come out
to about average - on the scale of 3-18 that we're using, remember that's a
lot of people we're measuring so the statistics will naturally be very
rough with the low TFT numbers. 

>>>>>>>>Conversely, I am sure that Arnold Schwartzenegger, even with his
>>>>>>>>strength, is not immune to disease or even in perfect health.
Didn't he just
>>>>>>>>undergo heart surgery recently? Again, how is it that you can
>>>>>>>>Strength and health? The connection is not as clear cut as it may

Because statistically ONE incident of heart surgery doesn't lower his
"lifetime" average. He gets a cold every two years like everyone else. But
he can run 5 miles straight just about any day of the week. Thus his
"average" gives him ST 18.

>>>>>>>Tell me, are most Olympic sprinters
>>>>>>>and runners built like Mr. Universe? No, they aren't. They are
indeed in
>>>>>>>good shape, but assuming Michael's theory to be true, then good old
>>>>>>>Ahhhrnold should be able to whup them good in a foot race. Don't
think so.
>>>>>>>As a point of fact, with my lean build, ***I*** could probably beat
the old
>>>>>>>Conan star.

Not all, because Olypmic sprinters have the Running/Olympic Runner talents
and Arnold doesnt. He'll still be at MA 10, while they are at MA 16.
They'll also have higher DX's that A.S. and therefore win Initiative during
the turns, giving them a head start in every turn of the race. 

>>>>>>>From a game standpoint, halflings often have low STs. Does this mean
>>>>>>>are sickly and constantly dying from the common cold? Incapable of
>>>>>>>running? I hope not - would make them rather unpopular as PCs,
wouldn't it?
>>>>>>>So, yes, quite simply there often IS a difference between Strength
>>>>>>>health. There is a distinct separation here, and to say that it is
>>>>>>>"unjustified and unrealistic" is the height of absurdity and
>>>>>>>to the blindingly obvious.

Not at all. Quite simply Hobbits live in nice neat clean little homes. They
don't get sick from common colds because they are huddled in their warm
little house and not in a lot of dangerous, wet, clammy and damp
environments. "3/ST to resist colds, -2d6 if your wrapped in a blanky by a
fireplace drinking a hot cup of camomile tea and haven't gone outdoors all

>>>>>>          To me, ST doesn't represent flesh content - it represents
>>>>>>"resistance" to injury. Generally vitality and ability to "roll with
>>>>>>punches". 30 ST wizards aren't big buff weightlifter's, they're
highly just
>>>>>>energetic old men....
>>>>>>>>>>>>This is flat ***wrong*** as a detailed look at ITL will
demonstrate. Please
>>>>>>>>>>>>read the section on determining character and monster weights,
which clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>>states that mass (i.e. "flesh content") is based directly on
Strength. So
>>>>>>>>>>>>yes, contrary to your feelings, ST *does* represent "flesh
content" - it
>>>>>>>>>>>>says so in no uncertain terms. Indeed, that was part of my
basis for
>>>>>>>>>>>>suggesting a split between strength and health.

Sorry, it's not my 'feelings', it's the words on ITL:35 - WEIGHT OF
CHARACTERS. "A *very rough* guide to the weight of many one-hex creatures".
Also, "For larger creatures....power-to-mass ratio goes down with size".
This is dealing with "weight". How far you can THROW someone. 

This does NOT connect in any way to how hard it is to kill someone with a
weapon OR with a disease.

In other words, ST affects the "MASS" of a figure - weight plus density -
not the "volume" of a figure. An ST 30 fighter (or wizard) is NOT three
times the size of an ST 10 figure. But he IS three times a "thick" in how
many sword blows it will take to wear them down to death. 

>>>>>- The issue of having wizards running around with high ST. Some don't
>>>>>but many do. The crux of the problem is that it implies that wizards
have to
>>>>>be muscle bound brutes in order to be effective. 

To my mind, you've only proven that the crux of the problem is the
misconception that ST equals larger body mass and therefore, strong wizards
are muscle-bound brutes, but to each his own.

>>>>>They cannot simply have
>>>>>good stamina and mastery of thought and mind to do spells... I think
>>>>>what most people rebel at. 

What?!? Speaking of bizarre conclusions....there is not a single thought
discipline of any kind on earth that doesn't practice extended breathing
and some form of physical excercise and meditation. None. Nada. Zip.
Therefore you can really only conclude that you can't be a wizard without
good stamina....

Oh well, I'll agree to disagree. 

HT adds a lot of complication and doesnt really seem to solve anything but
the misconception that you can't be skinny and have a high ST. I don't
really make ST rolls for mice and elephants.....it's just not that
important in a game to me....

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