RE: (TFT) RE: Health Stat

[Michael Taylor <MichaelTaylor1@compuserve.com>]

Message text written by INTERNET:tft@brainiac.com
>>>>>>> I would like to see a system that does
>>>>>>>address these issues. It need not be precise or terribly detailed
like
>>>>>>>GURPS, but needs to abstractly deal with the problem better than is
done in
>>>>>>>TFT.

I wouldn't mind that at all - as long as it DOESNT mess up the other
qualities of TFT that I love - its simplicity/ease-of-use and it's
"invisibility" (for lack of a better word). TFT doesn't get in the way of
roleplaying like so many other rule systems do. It's minimalist approach
makes it about the most streamlined system out there. 

That's my main problem with the HT stat. It suppossed I go modify every NPC
in may campaign for no reason. Because most of them have an ST 10. And
would therefore have an HT 10. What's the point of having both when 90% of
the time they're the same? 

Now I DO allow an HP (Hit Points) optional Attribute (exactly like adjIQ,
only for ST) for those people that want them. I might even change the ST of
elephant and mice to allow them to make disease saving rolls. But I *don't*
really believe that this interferes with the game. It may interfere with
your asthetic appreciation of the game, but I'll bet it doesn't really come
up in a game alot. 

>>>>>>>Well, fact is due to my wife I DO get exposed to all sorts of
things, and
>>>>>>>yet do not get ill. That is why I brought it up. Were I not exposed
as
>>>>>>>often, I would go along with that. But as it is not true...

Well nothing personal was meant by that (I don't know you personally after
all) - but if I had a EP for every out-of-shape gamer that told me they
must have a high ST because "they never get sick" I'd be a 60 point
character by now!

>>>>>>>True, but I have nevertheless seen people flunk fitness tests who
were
>>>>>>>physically very strong. Mind you, I don't consider them feeble, but
there
>>>>>>>was a clear difference in physique and stamina. I have seen this
first hand.
>>>>>>>What direct experience do you claim?

Oh, I agree there's a clear difference. What I don't agree is that that
difference amounts to more than one point worth when you average it down to
16 different numbers (3-18). And for those that feel there is, there's
always adjST. 

Remember two points I believe are critical. adjST is okay with me because
at least there is *some* relationship with Health and Strength. 

But a seperate HT Stat means that there is NO relationship between ST and
HT. Not that they are seperate, but that there is no more relationship
between ST and HT than between IQ and HT, and that they can be advanced
completely independantly. This is the main part of the HT stat I find
completely unrealistic. 

But adjST at least has some bearing on the total value of the ST attribute.


>>>Not all, because Olypmic sprinters have the Running/Olympic
>>>Runner talents
>>>>>>>Disagree - while these folks are physically very fit, a fair number
are
>>>>>>>downright *emaciated* and yet are swift runners. But I sure wouldn't
recruit
>>>>>>>them to help move furniture. Again, this is something I have seen
***first
>>>>>>>hand***

Again, you seem to be equating "mass" with ST. I dont see any basis to make
that distinction. Mass is "part" of ST, but not ALL of ST (to me). Wizards
don't cast more spells if they carboload! 

>>>>>>>Nevertheless, it IS the basis for weight and hence mass. Unless you
state a
>>>>>>>character is "extraordinarily skinny or fat" his weight will be ST
squared
>>>>>>>divided by 2. Thus, the higher the ST, the higher the weight (and,
thus,
>>>>>>>mass). Seems like a pretty clear and easy to understand relationship
to me;
>>>>>>>why should there be any problem...?

Because again, TFT 'rounds out' the extreme ends of the ranges. By this
logic, Mice should be ST 0.0001 because of their weight and elephants
should have ST 880. This doesn't make sense to me. So to me, it seems
obvious that instead of a linear, 1-1 exchange saying "1 ST point = 1 cu.
gram of Flesh" that there is a "density" and speed equation as well. 

ST 30 heroes are not 18 feet tall. 

>>>>>>>Horse hocky. It's a matter of documented medical fact that people
who are
>>>>>>>beefier have a better chance of surviving certain injuries. Given
equal
>>>>>>>layer of additional protection to vital organs. Obviously, a greater
amount
>>>>>>>of hard, dense muscle provides even more protection. So mass is VERY
>>>>>>>important. Even volume (as opposed to density) can be helpful
(something I

Yes - if your being *thrown!*. But not if a fight! 

In a fight between two combatants, fat people don't always win! Experience
matters *far more* in how long you will last in a fight. ST is meant to
reflect that. Remember, TFT is just an extension of the Melee boardgame.
It's ST score was (and is in TFT) a measure of how likely your going to
survive in combat. 

This is why you can buy more ST with Experience points! Because with more
"experience" in killing stuff, you can survive in combat longer! Nowhere in
TFT does it allow you to add more ST points because you've gotten fatter! 

I don't mind making that adjustment for car accidents, but to say that it
logically applies to all ST interactions is to concentrate on only one
aspect of ST, which covers far more than simple mass. 

>>>>>>>Taking it out a little further, are you trying to suggest that an
African
>>>>>>>Bull Elephant is easier to kill with a single sword hit then a house
cat????

I have absolutely no idea how you came to the conclusion that I believe
that. 

>>>>>>>An alternative test would be to take you and someone with a build
opposite
>>>>>>>yours (massive or skinny, depending on you) and plug each of you
with my
>>>>>>>1911A1, and see who is more seriously impaired. 3/IQ check to avoid
taking
>>>>>>>me up on this offer...

It will make no difference significant to account for 1 pt worth of ST.
Keep in mind that you are also assuming that weapons do the same amount of
damage to both figures. Tumbling characteristics in bullets realistic make
that an inaccurate assumption for guns (whatever a 19111A1 is). 

But are you saying that if we are BOTH equally armed, the winner will be
the fattest one?! Of course not! It will be the one with the most combat
experience (and thus, the higher ST score). 

Talents will matter alot as well - which is why, even if your a Green
Beret, you probably wont have much past ST 14-16. But bulk will have less
than a points worth of significance to the score. 

>>>>>>>>>Let's get something straight here: ST covers the amount of weight
one can
>>>>>>>>>lift and governs the types of weapons that may be used along with
bare
>>>>>>>>>handed damage. YES OR NO??? If ***yes***, then you've made a flat
statement
>>>>>>>>>that ST equals muscle mass. Period. End of discussion.

Only if you haven't read the rest of the TFT rules. ITL, page 8. STRENGTH
(ST) governs. You seem to be deliberately ignoring all the other things
that ST covers. You can put a period on it if you want to, but that doesn't
have any relationship to the TFT game. 

>>>>>>>>>Well, if its not that important, why do you always jump down my
throat on my
>>>>>>>>>/suggestions/? Its not like I'm forcing you at gunpoint to adopt
them, you
>>>>>>>>>know. In any case, its not that complicated.

My apologies - I have no intent to insult you at all. Disagreeing with you
is not insulting you. After all, I'm not the one implying that anyone who
doesn't see things the way you do is an idiot. 

I'm merely trying to suggest to you that taking two "far" ends of the
rulebook (at one end where weight is determined by ST and the other end
where ST determines hits in combats) and connecting them absolutely
literally - while completely ignoring all the other things the rulebook
says ST is for (hits, fatique, climbing rolls, forcing doors, etc.) is not
the ONLY correct interpretation of the rules. 

Michael
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