Re: (TFT) Word value

["Anthony Merlock" <amerlock@execpc.com>]

Ah, David, David, David.... You make some fairly significant errors in your
analysis.... Given that I'm waiting for Linux to install on my fourth
computer, I figured I'd correct some of your calculations.  I'm sure you'll
appreciate it.

>      In CHAINMAIL a hero was listed as being equal to four heavy horse.
In
> MEN & MAGIC a hero was four dice 8.  In THE PLAYERS HANDBOOK it was four
> dice ten.  In DEITIES & DEMI-GODS the average hit points of the 22 listed
> heroes is 139.6363.  The minimum number of dice ten that could cover such
a
> massive number of hit points would be fourteen.  It is an average roll for
> twenty six dice ten.  Listed in order of publication the inflation of
> numbers against the word value of hero is clear.
>
> HERO
> 4D6     CHAINMAIL           (c) 1971 "Tactical Studies Rules"
> 4D8     MEN & MAGIC         (c) 1974 "Tactical Studies Rules"
> 4D10    PLAYERS HANDBOOK    (c) 1978 "Tactical Studies Rules"
> 14D10    DEITIES & DEMI-GODS (c) 1980 "Tactical Studies Rules"

Here is your first analytical mistake. If a Hero is defined as being equal
to four heavy horse (which in 1st edition AD&D have 3d8+3 hit points), then
in 1st edition AD&D, that would be 4 x (3d8 + 3),  which, assuming that
every 4.5 constant "hit points" is equivalent to one single d8 (a common
assumption, based on the average distribution), is 14d8 + 3.

Also, your calculations on the hit dice of a Deities & Demigods hero is also
incorrect.  I quote, "Unless stated otherwise, hit dice are 8-sided (1-8 hit
points)."  (Deities & Demigods Cyclopedia, first printing, Copyright 1980
TSR, pg 5).  Thus, given that the average constitution listed for a "hero"
is 18, which provides a +4 HP/Die, one should divide the 139.6363 "average"
hit points by 8.5 (4.5 average for a D8, plus 4 HP per level), for an
average level of 16d8+64.  Now, if you calculate how many hit dice 64 Hp
are, you get 14d8 + 1, for a total of 30d8+1.

>
>      It seems clear that the number value of the word "hero" gets bigger
> over time.  That shows me a lack of understanding for their own formulas.

I don't know about that.  Even in TFT, a "hero"s number value increases over
time.  Since my only current character is a wizard (who's been sitting on
the shelf for *way* too long - it sucks not to have any TFT players in the
local area), I can only give as an example the halfing NPC who travelled
with him for a while.  The halfing "hero" increased from 30 points to 33
points during their travels (a 3 point increase in his number value), until
my wizard got tired of his sorry halfing *ss, and booted him down a 50'
shaft (and my GM didn't even give me the XP for the kill.....Damn him! Damn
him to hell!!!!!).

> It makes me wonder if they weren't just selling bigger numbers in each
> subsequent edition.  I mean, aside from all that artwork.

Well, given that in 2nd and subsequent editions of AD&D, TSR and Wizards of
the Coast have let the word "Hero" go undefined, it seems that this is
unlikely.  Well, the bigger numbers part, not the artwork part.

>      The word value of hero has been under examined.  A hero as defined by
> AD&D is a fourth level Fighter.  One should think that it was the use of
the
> word "hero" that lead to the idea of "henchmen" as a game mechanic.  Any
> AD&D character can have charisma.  Charisma usually does not increase
> without the use of wishes.  I find this strange.  The people at TSR seem
to
> have missed the point.

I don't know... Most D&D gamers I know haven't improved in Charisma in the
time I've known them, so E. Gary Gygax was probably basing that on his
personal experience.

>      I should think that Charisma, or number of followers, is what would
> make a "hero" in AD&D terms.  This would make more sense to me than
inflated
> numbers over time.  TFT specifically lists Charisma(cost 2) and New
> Followers(cost 2) as two separate talents.  Neither one is listed as an
> attribute like in D&D.  Also Charisma(2) is listed as a prerequisite of
New
> Followers(2).  I take this to be intentional on Steve Jackson's part.  To
> explain in a more logical set of rules how his system is different from
D&D.
>   Steve Jackson's work shows a greater awareness of word value.
>      The word value of "hero" in TFT means anything that is not a Wizard.
> Even a thief or assassin is a type of hero.

Assuming, of course, that the thief or assassin is not a wizard.  Also, a
slime is not a hero, and neither is an Uncle Teeth, or a dragon.

> A wizard is not.  A hero has to
> spend four points of IQ if they wish to have followers.  A Wizard is
> required to spend eight points of IQ if they wish to have followers.

In 1st edition AD&D, a Hero (a 4th level fighter) may not have followers.
In 1st edition AD&D, a Superhero (an 8th level fighter) still may not have
followers - they magically appear when the Superhero has murdered and robbed
enough "monsters" to be promoted to "Lord".

>      This distinction has an interesting correlation to the four heavy
horse
> of CHAINMAIL's "hero" and the eight heavy horse of CHAINMAIL's "super
hero".
>   My final conclusion on the word value in D&D, AD&D, and the rest, is
that
> there is almost none.  In addition, what ever value it once had was lost.

Proven, of course, by the fact that 2nd and 3rd edition AD&D do not define
the word "hero", thus officially removing its value.

> In that sense, TFT has been served better by being a dead game than a
living
> one.  Who knows what would have happened had TFT gone through multiple
> editions.

It would probably be GURPS, which, coincidentally, also does not define
"hero".  And, IMHO, sucks rocks.

>  To end this with a terrible mangle of puns and meanings; an IQ
> point is equal to one heavy horse, a hero is any non Wizard with
followers,
> and a super hero is any non Warrior with followers.
>
>      David Michael Grouchy II

If anyone has taken my response to David's post seriously, you're wrong.
Terribly, horribly, unnaturally wrong.....  So wrong, in fact, that you
couldn't possibly be more wrong.  Unless, of course, you're a Vikings,
Bears, Lions, or Cowboys fan......

Tony Merlock
(who really doesn't mean to insult Vikings, Bears, Lions or Cowboys fans...
wait.... Ok, I really *do* mean to insult Bears fans, but the rest of you
are OK).

Anyway, gotta go.  Time for my pills.

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