Re: (TFT) P.O.E. attacks and economics

[Pasha and or Rick Smith <pnrsmith@istar.ca>]

Hi Jay,
	A few quick replies to your comments.  Thanks!

>
>Uhh actually you missed an important aspect. I'd also called for there to be
>a limit on the number of coin in a given region. If a GM knows there are
>only 250,000 coins in the adventurers area it might make him think twice
>about awarding them that 100,000 coin treasure. It might even make more
>abstract awards, like labor for service, more valuable to players. It also
>allows prices to be set at levels that can make the accumulation of enough
>currency to pay a given price an adventure in itself.

	It has been years since the last 'dungeon 
crawl', mine is a political campaign.  And in that
dungeon crawl, the PC only got tiny amounts of 
money.  Typically my players don't get wealthy
until they gain a fair bit of political influence.


>
>Okay there is your problem with castles right there. Your running a swords
>and soccery campaign with a industrial age style economy. ...

	Good point, I had never considered this.  However
even-tho I have an industrial age economy, I still WANT
castles.


>I use P.O.E. attacks. Physical, Organizational, Economic
>
>Physical is obvious. If you want a method of handling army's using a
>character sheet I've got it.

	Not quite sure what you are suggesting above.
If you have an abstract battle system, I (and I'm sure 
many others) would love to see it.

>
>Organizational is a bit more subtle. It does imply directly going after a
>players followers, henchmen, associates with the three Bs (Blackmail,
>Bribery, Blackball) ...

	In Medagalin's early days, I hammered him 
with these problems.  One of the main reasons he
concentrated (he used to run labs in four different 
locations) was so he could physically protect and
isolate his workers.  

>
>Economic follows much the same line. Like say I wanted to go after
>Medagalin, a PC, who runs a town sized complex of dozens of Chemical
>laboratories. Well not knowing anything else about him I can still say that
>he's made the mistake of centralizeing production. As a GM I could; (1) Go
>after his trade routes. Make him spend effort and money so product can get
>through. 

	His trade routes run thru gates located in a
high security building from within his compound.
However much of what he builds is for PC's or the
Duke of Bibbereth (the local ruler) so the bulk of
his trade is local (that is the players come to him
with the ingredient for the specialty potion that 
they want, and return for delivery).


>(2) Have an NPC put an alchemist in all the major cities. Then
>Medagalins goods with all the added overhead of transportation can't
>possably compete. 

	In order to regularize trade Medagalin 
has formed the "Chemist's Guild" which puts
chemical labs in more small towns (to stop 
wasteful over-competition in big cities and 
under utilization of chemists in smaller towns.
It also is trying to rediscover some of the 
"Chemical Artificer" formulas from the lost 
age of Chemistry.
	The Lesser Empire (the main political
heavy in my campaign) has had a long policy
of isolating the key guilds in the surrounding
nations.  Medagalin is TRYING to overcome 
this by getting Chemists to organize.


>(3) Try to lock up all the alchemists in some kind of
>guild system that would exclude Medagalin, like having a charismatic
>follower go and 'new follower' all the alchemists he can find. Maybe even
>teach the guy alchemist and get him a job in the factory itself..... 

	Medagalin has every charisma type
talent that exists in TFT (including new ones
like Business Management, Political Science and
Personal Magnetism).  NPC's LIKE Medagalin
except when he moves into their territory 
(Dave who plays Medagalin couldn't under-
stand why he had so many enemies when his
character was such a nice guy.  I finally 
explained to him that I DIDN'T CARE how many
talents he had, if he costs powerful people 
money or influence THEY WON'T LIKE HIM.)
	Medagalin has also created a half 
dozen very useful Chemical Formulas and has
given them to his Chemist's Guild (which 
helps Chemists everywhere).
	Lastly he has the best employee
benefits (free high security housing, good
wages and A FREE MEDICAL program). It
would be unrealistic to say, "no one wants
to become your employee, they are all 
running off to Chemist X over here."


>(4)
>Have a rich NPC or organization buy out ingredients, like paying twice what
>Medagalins factory pays. 

	No one's ever tried that. Of course
the PC's bring him back a pretty regular 
supply of Demon's Blood.
	It would be hard to get to work,
most of the stuff he mass produces uses 
common ingredients, and that sort of attack
would likely run afoul the Duke of Bibbereth.


>(5) If Medagalin dosen't have political control
>over the area that his factory is built, have the lands regent seize the
>factory for the state or levy quite high taxes.


	After YEARS of putting up with the old
Duke in Bibbereth (who wasn't quite sane) Dave
has replaced him with a new Duke with whom 
he has a close alliance.  The new Duke is in awe
of Dave's political ability and is constantly 
pestering Medagalin to take on more responsibility.
Dave's finally put his foot down and said "No 
More!  I want the rest of my time for expanding
the Chemist's Guild and making new Chemical
Artifacer formulas."

	(Side note, this is one of the dirtiest
tricks you can play on a very successful PC. When
the PC has had to deal with Enemies, enemies,
enemies, have powerful friends start to give them
more and more work.  It is HARD to say no to your
friends, especially when they have SUCH GOOD
reasons for your to do this or that little thing.) 
	
***
	Jay,
	I don't mean to shoot down your suggestions
out of hand, but I just want to say that I've been
doing this for years.  My players have had to WORK
for the political influence they have gained.  I 
strongly believe that NPC's should be just as 
capable and ruthless as the PC's so there have been
some real dirty battles when the PC's try to gain
influence.  There are some regions of the world
where every PC who has tried to move in, have
failed, (they couldn't compete).

>
>
>So your players don't get to set their own prices for the goods they make?
>What character or NPC (Monster?) is in charge of fixing the prices cause I'm
>gonna 'new follower' him..........

	Competition is assumed to 'set prices' at 
around the rates in the book.  If someone invented
a way to produce (for example) Gunpowder at 1/3
the current cost and the secret got out, then I would
expect the average price to decline to the new
level.

	The whole point of the price list is that it
should show the fair costs for both producer and 
buyer.  If it doesn't then it needs to be fixed.  (Which
I've been doing for years.  This is the major problem
with my Alchemists and Chemists in TFT rules.  The
potions are ok, but the economics are not fair for
the producers.)


>Without a storyline you end up with something like the X-files that pretends
>to have all these layers of complexity but doesn't really because they are
>making it up as they go along so the ultimat secret is always a few steps
>away, no matter how many layers of the onion have been peeled away.

	Ha!  I've felt that way about the X-Files for
years!  I have mapped well beyond the current area
of my campaign (the observable world is a bowl an 
estimated 600,000 km in diameter so I have not 
detailed it all yet.  There are a number of powerful
story arcs that is driving the campaign forward.

>
>
>I think the main problem with TFT's economic system is the assumption that
>simply because something is listed then you can buy it. This does cheapen
labor by eliminating it from the mix. 

	This is shown in my campaign largely by
TIME constraints.  PC's need some thing (an Iron
Flesh say).  They hunt down and kill a 7 hex dragon
and skin it.  Then they start going around to the 
friendly Wizard Schools trying to find a coven that
can handle it.  However they usually find that they
are booked up for the next 14 months, then they
have to find another school or wait.  Then they 
have to wait for the item to be built.

	Sure you can go into a school and find 
some common items pre-made. (Elemental rings,
a +1 Broadsword, a Light spell lantern.)  But I
do NOT allow powerful items to be typically 
bought off the shelf.  (I will sometimes have a
lord trying to sell a powerful item, and it frustrates
my PC's because it is NEVER what they need right
now...)

	The thing is if all of the Covens are 
booked up for 14 to 24 months, the PC's ask:
"Why are their not more wizard covens?" With
wizards the answer is easy: there are a finite
number of wizards. (Then go to the elves where
there is a much higher %.)  But with Chemists
and the trades with "learned skills" my answer 
has less force.  What I typically have said is
that if you want potions, become a chemist.
When a PC did became a chemist, it would have 
seemed unfair to have all trade dry up simply
because he is a PC.  (Altho he does sometimes 
run into time periods where he does not get
all the orders he wants.)



	I think your first answer is the best one, 
if you posit industrial age civilization (driven largely
with magic) then perhaps the time of castles is over.

	I take economics and politics VERY 
seriously in my campaign.  The PC's who have
stuck with me this long are very competent. It is in 
this environment where I found castles to be not the
 defence that I would have them be.

	I tried to bring magic into line with 
castles using Enviromental Magics and cheap no - 
mana zones.  (A different type of moat!)

=====
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