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Re: (TFT) Shield rush in Melee --> Momentum of heavy blows.
At 09:36 AM 11/22/03 -0800, Charles Gadda wrote:
These are all good points, Peter, and I do not wholly disagree, but I do
have a few quibbles:
> * Some people in TFT have better than fine plate, or fine plate AND a
> shield and magical protection and toughness etc.
Yes, but most will not. Which goes back to my main point about going through
a lot of trouble for that one in zillion exception. (Granted that this sort
of enhanced protection will not be quite that rare, but unless the GM is in
a giveaway mood it shouldn't be all that common, either).
It's not really one in a zillion though. Many weapons can do 8 points or so
per attack, and someone with medium armor and shield can absorb nearly that
much. Stone Flesh is a quite powerful item or spell that many GM's may
"let" their players get, and when combined with armor and/or shield, can
result in an armor value that makes it quite hard for a casually-equipped
32-point fighter to hurt them at all. If they could at least be knocked
around a bit sometimes, it could add a some tension/interest to
otherwise-slaughterfests, and break up the "front lines" of group melee
combat a bit.
> * If you are fighting someone with a tremendous amount of protection, being
> able to move them a hex or two may be a way to deal with them, escape
them, > etc, particularly if there are pits/water/mud/cauldrons etc. nearby.
Valid point as far as it goes. But I have seen little evidence that even
high damage blows will actually send someone flying (keep in mind the
examples cited thus far involve frictionless surfaces - not at all common in
either TFT or the real world).
Well my perspective is that a humanoid isn't a block being hit by an
elastic collision. Humanoids are carefully balanced to keep themselves
standing up, and if they stumble, slide, trip, or are pushed or injured or
stunned or fall unconscious, they frequently move out of control by an
appreciable distance, on their own power. Blows can also include some
pushing as well as the momentum imparted by the initial collision.
If I get triple damage with a dagger and do
15 points, does that mean I knocked you into left field? A more likely
explanation is that I simply slashed your throat from ear to ear...
I'd quite agree on that point.
...
As above. Agree that it is important, but I question the need for a new game
mechanic.
For players who aren't really interested, I'd agree that TFT doesn't _need_
a new game mechanic for it. You can have a few similar effects by
interpreting the Forced Retreat mechanic to represent this in some cases.
I've been writing from the perspective of players who are interested in
adding a mechanic.
> * In terms of realism, distance sent backwards isn't directly determined
> by damage done. ...
I agree, here, but if knockback is not dependent on damage, then how do we
determine it? In a sense, you just torpedoed your own argument...
I just didn't provide a suggestion for how _I'd_ take this into account.
Again, different players may enjoy different rules. I can think of several
general approaches that would suit different players' tastes:
1) The TFT way - use Forced Retreat and imagination, and consider it good
enough.
2) The GURPS way - use about 8 points of crushing/cutting per hex knockback
and a DX roll to stay afoot, with a different number based on the target
mass etc. Not perfect, more complex that TFT, but pretty simple and fun for
some.
3) The more detailed way - Make more detailed rules that also take into
account the hit location, target DX/mass, etc., and a fairly large random
factor to represent stumbling, etc.
4) The less detailed way - invent a simple mechanic with a lot of
randomness and some limits and/or effects of blow type/strength, and use that.
5) The GM discretion way - let the GM keep all of the above in mind, and
occasionally decide to make his own rolls when it seems to him like someone
might be knocked back, etc. I'd say it's important that it always involve
some chance, though, since cliffs and ledges can ruin some people's entire
days.
> * Having played hundreds of TFT and GURPS combats on maps, ...
Though I wonder which models real mediaeval type combat more accurately? One
thing to consider, here, is that GURPS uses 1 yard hexes while TFT is on a
1-1/3 metre scale - thus, GURPS rules do not directly translate to TFT in
this regard.
Yes the hex scale is a bit different. I rather prefer the way GURPS plays
out, and the details and options available. You can have figures fight in a
TFT-like way in GURPS, lining up and hacking (even use All Out Attack all
the time so there are no defense rolls), and the body arrangement will be
fairly similar.
...
Just like Sorehead (errr.... Sauron) in PJ's version of FOTR, eh? Can't
disagree with you here at all - it WOULD be quite fun/scary for the reasons
cited.
Hehe, yeah. It can be pretty amusing. Adding some randomness to the
calculation can add humor and guesswork, too. While not exactly a knockback
situation, there was a hilarious flying body event in one of my TFT/GURPS
campaigns, where the players were trying to escape on a sleigh wagon in the
snow, and were pursued by TFT gargoyles modeled in GURPS. An archer
crippled a wing of a gargoyle flying over the wagon, which naturally
required a determination of where the rather heavy gargoyle would land...
and it fell right on top of the party's dwarven tank type in plate over
chainmail over padded cloth armor, who himself weighed an excessive amount
- the result was a large hole in the wagon (promptly drawn on the wagon
counter, of course), and the two figures disappearing into the snow below,
presumed probably dead, but when the dice were counted, just bruised and
embarrassed. It was hysterical, and also an important event for determining
what happened next.
PvK
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