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Re: (TFT) Actual numbers on digging.

Yes, that's a good reference.

I get from that:

* Actual digging is about 1/2 to 1/4 of the manpower requirement.

* Note that sandbagging I assume means the walls are intended to be shored up with sandbags. This may not be the plan in TFT. What will prevent collapse depends on what's being dug through. Some might need something more like a wooden framework. In general, the less shoring is necessary to prevent collapse, the harder the material will be to dig through.

* The rate given was about the same, for four times as many people, through soil rather than rock.

From my own 'I can guess really well guys' department, I would add:

* Realistically, I wouldn't expect any TFT missile spells to really do much if any tunneling work equivalent to a stone wall, or even a soil one.

* Different materials require different tools and skills to dig through.

* Actual mining is pretty dangerous.

* I'd look at historical medieval siege accounts of tunneling under walls as references.


At 12:31 PM 2/19/05 -0800, Rick Smith wrote:
Thanks Charles!
   I really appreciate the dose of reality that
you wake us 'I can guess really well guys' up



On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 19:15, Charles Gadda wrote:
> > > From: Mark Tapley <mtapley@swri.edu>
> >
> > > Am I reading this that it takes 100 ST of damage to
> > > advance the whole face of a tunnel (say 1 m x 2 m )
> > > one cm? That's removing, um... 2 million cc's of
> > > stone.
> >
> > Ummmm ... I get 20,000cc.
> Per ITL, the basic tunneling rate in "average" stone is 2cm/per hour per
> point of ST. Thus, a 10 ST man will remove 20cm x 100cm x 200cm=400,000cc or
> .5232 cubic yards
> >From War Department manual TR 195-25 Fortification "Protected Shelters"
> dated 1 Dec 1927:
> a. Inclines and passages:
> 1 man picking
> 1 man filling sandbags
> 1 man carrying for each 10 feet of entrance
> 1 relief
> =0.6 cubic yards per hour (but this is in *soil* not rock!)
> Obviously, TFT is off, but perhaps not horribly so. I would suggest that the
> rate be reduced to 1 cm/per point ST for relatively soft rock; doubled for
> soil; and perhaps some fraction thereof for harder rock. And this would be
> with at least one additional man clearing spoilage; perhaps more depending
> on circumstances.
> Of course, much depends on what you are trying to mine through - a single
> layer brick wall is relatively easy but the same bricks 20 layers deep will
> present quite a challenge.
> > > No, tunneling (with picks) isn't too easy. Remember .
> > > It takes a while. Months, even for just a few rooms.
> >
> > I don't think I agree with this.  I think skilled
> > tunnellers can probably clear a respectable area in a
> > surprisingly short amount of time.  Tunnellers would be
> > more likely to cut the stone into the largest size
> > blocks that they can carry away instead of smashing it
> > to pieces.
> Just gonna "cut" the stone,eh? I doubt its that simple - they probably will
> just chip chunks of it away, as best they can. There is nothing neat and
> tidy about tunneling.
> > If there's wood available, they can heat the stone to amplify cracks.
> Or use a Fire spell.
> And tunnels rarely go
> > through homogenious material.  And unless you're deadset
> > on a floorplan, you can follow fissures in the rock or
> > better yet, natural caves.
> When available, absolutely.
> As for spell use, I think the rules are wrong, here. It's not as if a Magic
> Fist or even a lighting bolt is just going to disingtegrate and vapourise
> the rock - at the least someone is going to have to remove the spoilage.
> Personally, I don't think they would be very effective at all - especially
> fireball given that it is more of an instantaneous flash rather than a
> sustained heat. Here is what I would suggest:
> Each *die* of Lighting damage removes 1cm of rock (and requires 2 minutes/cm
> to remove spoilage). (BTW, this represents, on average, a 1:35 reduction in
> mining rate) Each die of Magic Fist removes 1/2cm of rock, with same
> spoilage removal requirements. A Wizard's Wrath removes 1.5cm of rock per
> die (assuming lighting bolt form).
> This should lower the rate to a more believable level, while still making it
> a viable strategy.
> For the slower approach, the Fire spell might help, as well. In this case it
> enhances the miner's ability to cut stone - each Fire spell will increase
> the miner's effective ST by 1. All else in terms of time remains the same.
> Not sure how to treat multi-hex fires, though.
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