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Re: (TFT) TFT tactics point

Here's my opinion:
I hear a lot of people on this message board do a lot of talking nostalgically about and lamenting about TFT. Every so often there is tough talk about "rewriting" the rules and to hell with the copyright holder. The plain and simple fact is we do not own the rights to these rules. I for one would not be comfortable putting my name or my art work on any published material for sale or for free distribution unless I knew that the publisher owned the rights to the game. Using the exact same game but changing the terminology to avoid copyright issues is also just wrong in my opinion.
But still many of us have wanted new and fresh material for TFT. We obviously can not republish the rules. But we can, however, make new scenarios for those rules. Now I had joined this message board several years ago hoping that would be the case. And there have been a few scenarios put forth. I have even tried my hand at a few of them. But sadly it's been mainly about esoteric things like realistic weapon wound damage against various materials, or the circumference of the TFT planet. I'm much more interested in adventure ideas, battle reports, scenario concepts, etc.
This is where I think that George Dew and Dark City Games should be commended for what they've done. DCG actually did something about it rather than just continuing talking on and on about doing something about it. I have played through most all of the Dark City Games using TFT rules and have found them to work exceedingly well. As George mentioned Legends is about the adventures, not the rules, and he proves that by the quality of his product. His adventures maintain a classic TFT game tone while at the same time adding a more contemporary spin. In my run through of some of his scenarios at various gaming conventions I have not had to alter anything. My players had a wonderful time, character death was at a minimum yet the scenarios were challenging. There's always that chance that you might not make it through the scenario alive that made classic TFT scenario's like Death Test so much fun to play.
But even though new scenarios are great there is still the problem of the rules for new players. And would it be smart to publish scenarios for a game that you can't purchase? That's a business model doomed from the start. What George did with the Legends rules fills that gap nicely. It's not TFT but it's close enough so that the scenarios will work with TFT. And there's a lot of great ideas in the Legends rules. It plays just fine for what it was designed for, a basic game for beginners and a basic game that allows the scenarios to be played with TFT. It's pretty brilliant if you ask me. But regardless of how you feel about the rules the end result is that we now have new, well thought out scenarios for TFT. This business model is nothing new, many of us have considered doing it for many years. The main point is that George actually implemented it. He had the capital, the desire (he might not have mentioned it but he's a big fan of TFT) and the intelligence to put out a product that would keep him and his company out of copyright problems. And none of this for profit. I've worked in this industry enough to know what a booth at GenCon two years running costs, how much printing costs, mailing costs, web site fees, art and writers fees, etc. You do the math and tell me how many units at $12 he'll have to sell to just break even.
Now if you'll forgive me I'm going to toot my horn. I too like to think that I'm doing my small part with my tribute web site dedicated to keeping TFT alive. My hopes are to expose new people to TFT through a well designed, very visual site that might convince someone to give the game a try. I know for a fact (via e-mails) that I have introduced several people to the game already. I've also voluntarily linked to Dark City Games to steer new people towards the microquest style of gaming and to provide them with actual product they can purchase to use to game with. Slowly, bit by bit, I've driven new players to the game.
Look, we all wish that we could see TFT back in print again in our lifetime. But unless someone finds the copyright holder and we buy them out this will simply have to be wishful thinking. I often wonder how well it would standout against all of the other games currently out there anyway and how well it would even sell. What a shame if we saw it back in print only to have it go back out of print just as quickly.
So I'm offering a challenge to this list. What can you do to help out? Don't set back and keep writing more e-mails that go on forever about nothing much at all. Write a scenario! I'll publish it on my web site. Send it in to George, maybe he'll publish it. Do some art work, organize all of the house rules in one place so we can review them and put them up on a web site so anyone can see them, not just members of this list, update your own sites (if you have one), run a TFT tournament at a local game store or convention, link to Dark City Games, join other message boards and talk up TFT (I do this on the Heroscape boards all of the time), etc. Get involved, this is how we keep "the little game that could" alive. 

David O. Miller
www.meleewizards.com


On Oct 23, 2007, at 8:30 PM, George Dew wrote:


Kirk and I agree on one thing--Try out LEGENDS OF THE ANCIENT WORLD!!!

However, play it as a separate game--it is not TFT nor is it a one-off.
READ THE RULES without incorporating any TFTish assumptions, you'll avoid 
another pitfall from the previous post.
That post argues that in Legends, you can unfairly "gang-up" on a character. If you READ the Legends rules, then you'll find just the opposite is true.
In TFT, six DX12 characters attacking a single DX11 character all get to hit 
him before he even gets to strike back.  In Legends, after the first
character attacks him, the DX11 character gets to counterattack! This is 
just the opposite of what was stipulated.
I'm not here to promote Legends; I think Kirk is doing a good enough job of that. I just don't want people to hear a one-sided misrepresentation of 
what "Legends of the Ancient World" is all about:

- Legends is NOT TFT.  Don't try to interpret it as a substitute.

- Legends is a fast-playing INTRO designed to bring beginners into the
hobby.  Heck, it's only seven pages long including magic!  Even Melee
without magic was 21 pages long.  Add Wizard, and now you're talking 50
pages in all!!  And that's not even the "Advanced" Melee/Wizard/ITL.

- Nobody ever told you that you HAVE to play Legends.
- Legends is about the adventures, not the rules--try a DCG adventures with 
the TFT rules, and you'll be surprised how compatible they are.
Another thing, the GM's job is NOT to try and kill off characters. His job is to ensure that his players have as much fun as possible, so they'll come 
back for more.
Finally, this whole thread should not be about Legends, it should be about TFT!! I don't see why Kirk has to bash Legends in order to talk about TFT; 
they're completely different concepts.
Regarding TFT, I might consider implementing a website where you could get all the original Melee, Wizard, TFT, and all the Microquests (hard copy; digest format; quality similar to our DCG adventures). However, I honestly believe that it's only fair to respect the original work AND the original copyright holder. Therefore, if ANYONE has any objection, I would not do 
it.

Do I hear any comments on this?

If I do it, anyone who gets copies will have to reimburse COGS (about
$3/each) AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, agree to pay the full purchase price
(whatever that may end up being) to the rightful copyright holder if s/he ever again comes to light. They would also have to indemnify me against any 
future lawsuits stemming from the copyrighted materials.

With respect to creating a TFT2, personally, I question whether it does
justice to the original TFT. Everybody agrees on the original TFT, after all, it's written in ink. When people start adding their own house rules, 
it's not really TFT any longer.  I guess to me, TFT is sacred.

A project to rewrite TFT and add house rules would be a lot of fun.
However, it should not be called "The Fantasy Trip," because it isn't.












-----Original Message-----
From: tft-admin@brainiac.com [mailto:tft-admin@brainiac.com]On Behalf Of 
Kirk Woller
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 16:25
To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: (TFT) TFT tactics point
Just a brief clarification on the differences between TFT and Legends. It is not a matter of being realistic, it is a matter of play balance and flow. The TFT combat procedure is elegant and works very well, with only the few 
little points people have about a singular spell or some other small
preference. Because of the non-simultaneous aspect of a representation of combat, "zones of control" were developed to restrict unrealistic sequential style movement, not just in TFT but in other "wargames" as well, to good general effect. The ZOCs can be rigid or soft, but they are usually there in a I go/you go type turn for good reason. Efforts to compensate for this, like GURPS defensive rolls, etc. don't work well and aren't enjoyable to 
play, IMO and other gamers' opinions, as well.
The current Legends rules allow ganging up on one character at a time which I have gamed out with several test sessions with other experienced players 
and result in eliminating one or more characters almost assuredly in a
combat. The lack of engagement and a few other details of the combat (such 
as the skills adds) change the fundamental workings of the TFT tactical
system and allow a competent GM to destroy a party in two encounters or less almost every time. Try it out for yourselves, playing the Legends rules as they are written being sure not to incorporate any assumptions of TFTish aspects such as engagements, etc. with something you have experience with, such as Death Test. If you have any questions about how to do this write me 
and I can help with the details if you don't discover them on your own.
I think on a rewrite we would really want to stick with what has worked and effectively been playtested over 30 years. Any changes I think would need to be suggestions and indicated as such in the text so players could stick with the TFT rules that drew them in in the first place. Moving away from the current tactical system usually gives rise to a GURPish style combat system. After analyzing the two systems it really dawned on me that there may only be these two fundamental ways to handle this level of combat, GURPS style and TFT style. At the time GURPS was under development SJ seemed to make me think he thought that in the end it would be a better game, but I am 
thinking he didn't have much choice since he couldn't use the TFT style
tactical combat that he had left with HT, either out of pride or for legal reasons. I much prefer and enjoy the TFT style and I assume others on this 
list do, too.  But to each his own, but I certainly would like to play
anyone with the Legends rules as the GM in any of the original microquests 
and see how you fare! :-)

-Kirk
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