Re: (TFT) TFT-style rules

["Craig W. Barber" <craigwbar@comcast.net>]

Hi Kirk!  ((And George Dew and everyone else, too!))


    Thanks for the post Kirk!  A LOT of info there!  ((First off, I wrote the
bulk of this thing off the cuff before I read the whole list of counter-posts,
so I'll go through and add these little later comments in double brackets.))

    Sorry about the length of this post....  Also, someone should resurrect my
random thoughts the LAST time I went nuts on this topic, and compare to see
how my thoughts have probably changed!

    Copyright versus Trademark versus Patent:

    TM VERSUS ORIGINAL COPYRIGHT

    1)    I'll start right out by saying I don't recall right now ever
researching the issue of trademarking the name of someone else's copyright
materials.  (I know, I know, "and you call yourself an IP lawyer, Craig?").
In particular, I'd be willing to bet (without research and without my own
money on the line!!) that you cannot trademark a name and then use it to
prevent publication of the artwork/text by the original, older, copyright
owner.  Hmm, think I'll go trademark the movie title "Gone With the Wind"
today...   This can happen, as happened with TFT, because a TM must be renewed
every few years.  HT dropped the TM decades ago, DCG picked it up.

    Maybe I'm wrong of course!  But I would GUESS that DCG is barking up the
wrong tree thinking that they can prevent the legitimate TFT copyright holder
(whoever that is) from re-publishing.  I should probably try and research that
one the next time I'm close to a fed law library.  (We've got other lawyers
around here, anyone have time and access to LEXIS or WESTLAW?)

    OTOH... DCG probably COULD prevent you or me (that is: *not* original
copyright owners) from publishing for profit a game entitled "THE FANTASY
TRIP".  Danger, Will Robinson, Danger.

    ((AHA!!  We've got George Dew!!  Welcome indeed, very welcome, it's good
to have one DCG guy and better to have two.  **And EVERYBODY is glad you're
publishing modules!**  George, did you talk to an IP lawyer and have them look
at the issue of the TM on the name TFT versus the copyright on the materials?
I don't think it matters to you because my assumption is that if someone
reappears with a legal copyright interest in publishing TFT, you probably
don't care.  Next question: are you planning to try and shut down download
offerors of free scans?  "(Keepers of the Book)".    Would you prefer to chat
about this privately?  craigwbar@comcast.net if so.  I'd love to chat by phone
sometime if you want to, get my toll free and let's brainstorm.  And you
**don't** have to talk about it at all or have your toes held to the fire as
some kind of reverse-karmic punishment for trying to put out good scenarios!!
))

    2)     TM versus Patent

    Now HERE'S where things get promising all around.

    GAME MECHANICS NORMALLY FALL WITHIN THE REALM OF PATENTS.  And I have
never heard anyone claim that there were any TFT mechanics original enough to
qualify for patent (there probably were some, way back then) or that a patent
was filed in the proper time frame (12 months from publication back in 1976
and 1977!), and anyway, if there was such a patent, it would've expired in
1994.  For example, Bob Kiyosaki's "Rich Dad Poor Dad" game is patented,
unlike TFT, but that patent will eventually expire.   Patents cannot be
renewed.

    TFT GAME MECHANICS MAY WELL BE AVAILABLE TO ANYONE... but don't call it
"The Fantasy Trip", since DCG owns that name.  Don't use the original
materials in any way shape or form, HT owns that.  (Unless maybe you're the
original copyright owner...)  And see below regarding the written words and
artwork of the TFT materials!

    3)    Copyright of Howard Thompson

    HOWEVER, THE COPYRIGHTS OF HT AND HIS HEIRS AND ASSIGNS MUST BE RESPECTED
for the things they actually cover.

    (If you're not giving this email blank looks by now, you've got a mind as
twisty as a lawyer.)

    Look, Howard Thompson (or MGC, his corp) had a valid and legal copyright
in TFTs actual materials and "choice of expression".  If anyone could contest
that, it would have been SJ, but (correct me if I'm wrong on the history
here), SJ signed that away during the court case in which he got back OGRE and
GEV.  So, someone out there presumably owns, via HT, copyright in TFT's
materials and "choice of expression", that is, the words written by SJ, for
example, the story of the Mnoren and Cidri and Flavius versus Wulf and all the
rest of the text of the original books.

    BUT COPYRIGHT DOESN'T COVER 'MECHANICS', it covers "EXPRESSION".

    "THE SWORD OF SHANNARA", also known as "Lord of the Rings Lite".  Put it
this way: you can grab someone's ideas, as long as you don't grab their
expression of their ideas.  Or put it like this: D&D bred T&T and TFT and
Legends so on... but they are all distinct, even though they share very basic
ideas: fantasy worlds, dungeons, role playing, attributes, GM/DM, EP,
beastieries, and so on and on... but they are not copyright infringements!

    Here's another one: LORDS OF UNDEREARTH  could be held to not be a
copyright infringement of TFT, since it has different words all the way
through.  (Now that example is REALLY stretching it, but I'm trying to convey
the principle here.  Anyway, LOU was owned by HT too.)

    But what about the weapons table?  That must be pretty much the same from
TFT to LOU, which *might* make it copyright infringement if you or I did that.

    Here's the hypothetical payoff:

    As long as you write up your own **expression** of the rule mechanics and
tables, you might theoretically be OK versus HTs valid copyright.  As long as
you did *not* name it "The Fantasy Trip", you'd be theoretically OK versus
DCGs presumably valid TFT trademark.   But for example, you'd have to come up
with your own weapons table.  Not paraphrase it, judges ain't stupid.
Paraphrasing can get you in trouble.  Your own actual weapons table.  However,
think of all the changes you could make to the weapons table ANYWAY.  I mean,
the thing about ST limits on what weapons a figure can take, followed by DX
pluses and minuses if a character ends up with the wrong weapon anyway...?  We
have no inspiration on improving that?

    Is this nuts enough yet?

    Caveats, legal and practical.

    I see one really major legal caveat and tons of potential little ones.  It
seems to me that a court might rule that the game mechanics were "expression"
of the idea of role playing, rather than that the rules books were expressions
of the game mechanics.  Under a ruling like that anything "TFT-style" *would*
be a copyright infringement.  Even that hurdle can probably be overcome the
same way DCG overcame it though: just write *your own rules mechanics*
inspired by the feel of TFT I.  ((Sorry George, if Legends was not inspired by
TFT 1 then I humbly apologize.))  Now, I've personally never met anyone who
had any suggestions for improving TFT mechanics (yeah right) but I'm sure one
could scratch around and come up with a system based on TFT but a big
improvement.

    Practical caveats: anyone can sue anyone for any reason, and getting sued
is NEVER worth it.  If I ever do this thing, I'll be doing a LOT of legal
research first and writing mechanics and tables that are very different
indeed, but which stay close to the "feel" of TFT.   And the name will be a
lot different too.  The smart thing to do would be to NOT do it, instead, find
HT and beg.

    Another practical caveat:  Like Kirk said, there ain't no money in it.
The DCG people are evidently breaking their backs trying to get this thing
out, why not just go to them and cooperate on a "Legends II" system which
incorporates things you like about TFT and deletes the weaknesses in Legends
and TFT?  ((Hey, that's you, Mr. Dew.  Comments?))

Hmmm!!!     Another practical caveat:  Kirk, are you an agent provocatuer for
DCG or SJG?   ;)   ((OK, based on those later posts I'm guessing that one is a
resounding NO.))

Also:  Side note: I've still not checked into the "unavailability" defense for
things like downloads of TFT I.  That might be a defense to offering
downloads, but downloads wouldn't do much good for creating a new and better
game based on TFT.

    Glad to clarify that!  (yeah ha ha Craig)  Why do they call lawyers
octopuses?  Because we always say "On the other hand" about seven times per
sentence.

    Other lawyers: PLEASE rip into this, it isn't some kind of dearly held
legal opinion, I'm spinning fast and furious here.  Any holes in the reasoning
should be picked open and explored.  For that matter, are there other avenues
that might get more TFT-style games back out there?

    Theoretically, there's a way through the thicket, a la the course charted
by DCG.  But... why not just get DCG interested in a bigger re-write?

((Like I said, I wrote this stream of consious style before reading everyone's
posts on the topic.  Sorry if I said anything offensive, Mr. Dew, Kirk, Chris,
PvK, etc.  AND, I'm coming to see the value in trying it independent of DCG.
That is, George Dew has his vision of an RPG, and he implemented it.  Anyone
with a different vision could compete with George, if you've got the energy!))

   (( Different thread: David Jackson:  We have a David Jackon down in Baton
Rouge.  David, do you have any connection to SJ?  ))

    ((OK, is all that nosy enough or what?  Nobody has to answer any #@!
questions they don't want to answer!))

    Craig B
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