RE: (TFT) TFT-style rules

["George Dew" <gdew@ResponseNetworking.com>]

Craig,

I really enjoyed your post! :-)

Let me explain a little about the thought behind the Trademark issue.
However, I have to give a little background first.

First of all, like everyone else, I REALLY loved TFT as a kid.  I thought it
was far superior to DnD, and we played it all the time.

My brother Warren wrote "Crown of Kings" and submitted it to Metagaming back
in 1980, but they never got back to him, so it languished on a shelf for a
quarter of a century--sounds like the "one ring" doesn't it--after all, it's
what started all this trouble :-)

Well, when my oldest son turned 13, we broke out the old TFT materials and
he really became interested.  In a generation of video games, I was
extremely encouraged, until we ran out of all TFT materials, including the
then-for-TFT "Crown of Kings."

At that point in time, I put some original adventure materials such as
"Crown of Kings" & "Grey Sapphire" up on the Internet, but sadly, it was
text-based (kind of like Zork), not like the whiz-bang stuff of modern video
games.  I started getting feedback, and it seemed that people wanted hard
copies.

Well, one thing led to another, and before long, we had gotten artwork for
the cover, pieces, and internal illustrations.  To defray this cost, we
began selling the games on eBay.  However, as anyone can quickly figure out,
you can't make $$ in the game industry unless you're one of the big players.
How's the joke go? "to make a million in the game industry, you start with
two."  In two years of existence DCG has lost about $25,000.  However, the
good thing here is that the venture doesn't have to make money to continue
operating.

So after putting all the time and money into the thing, there were some
concerns that the copyright owner would resurface and sue us!!  I doubt this
would happen because of the way we've structured things, but nothing's out
of the realm of possibility.  Furthermore, I believe that someone only sues
if there's money in it.  But just to be safe, we did the trademark.

So what it comes down to is that we trademarked "The Fantasy Trip" as
another barrier to keep ourselves from getting sued.  However, after reading
your post, I now realize that there are other purposed to which the
trademark can be used.

The point here is that I LOVED TFT as a kid, and I was heartbroken when it
went out of business.  I even bought the several GURPS Conan programmed
adventures when they came out, hoping for more of the old stuff.

Anyway, if the orignal TFT copyright holder resurfaced, I would WELCOME
their return.  Keep in mind, we're not in this to make money, we're in this
because we love the hobby.

Also along those lines, I really respect the original material.  However,
this creates kind of a conflict.  The copyright belongs to someone out
there, and legal issues aside, it's THEIR creative property.  On the other
hand, it's a real shame to see this wonderful hobby languish and die as our
generation gradually recedes.

I guess that's why we started DCG.  To me, my favorite two things in the
world are gaming; and spending time with my children.  When I can combine
the two, I'm in heaven.






-----Original Message-----
From: tft-admin@brainiac.com [mailto:tft-admin@brainiac.com]On Behalf Of
Craig W. Barber
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 16:55
To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: Re: (TFT) TFT-style rules


Hi Kirk!  ((And George Dew and everyone else, too!))


    Thanks for the post Kirk!  A LOT of info there!  ((First off, I wrote
the
bulk of this thing off the cuff before I read the whole list of
counter-posts,
so I'll go through and add these little later comments in double brackets.))

    Sorry about the length of this post....  Also, someone should resurrect
my
random thoughts the LAST time I went nuts on this topic, and compare to see
how my thoughts have probably changed!

    Copyright versus Trademark versus Patent:

    TM VERSUS ORIGINAL COPYRIGHT

    1)    I'll start right out by saying I don't recall right now ever
researching the issue of trademarking the name of someone else's copyright
materials.  (I know, I know, "and you call yourself an IP lawyer, Craig?").
In particular, I'd be willing to bet (without research and without my own
money on the line!!) that you cannot trademark a name and then use it to
prevent publication of the artwork/text by the original, older, copyright
owner.  Hmm, think I'll go trademark the movie title "Gone With the Wind"
today...   This can happen, as happened with TFT, because a TM must be
renewed
every few years.  HT dropped the TM decades ago, DCG picked it up.

    Maybe I'm wrong of course!  But I would GUESS that DCG is barking up the
wrong tree thinking that they can prevent the legitimate TFT copyright
holder
(whoever that is) from re-publishing.  I should probably try and research
that
one the next time I'm close to a fed law library.  (We've got other lawyers
around here, anyone have time and access to LEXIS or WESTLAW?)

    OTOH... DCG probably COULD prevent you or me (that is: *not* original
copyright owners) from publishing for profit a game entitled "THE FANTASY
TRIP".  Danger, Will Robinson, Danger.

    ((AHA!!  We've got George Dew!!  Welcome indeed, very welcome, it's good
to have one DCG guy and better to have two.  **And EVERYBODY is glad you're
publishing modules!**  George, did you talk to an IP lawyer and have them
look
at the issue of the TM on the name TFT versus the copyright on the
materials?
I don't think it matters to you because my assumption is that if someone
reappears with a legal copyright interest in publishing TFT, you probably
don't care.  Next question: are you planning to try and shut down download
offerors of free scans?  "(Keepers of the Book)".    Would you prefer to
chat
about this privately?  craigwbar@comcast.net if so.  I'd love to chat by
phone
sometime if you want to, get my toll free and let's brainstorm.  And you
**don't** have to talk about it at all or have your toes held to the fire as
some kind of reverse-karmic punishment for trying to put out good
scenarios!!
))

    2)     TM versus Patent

    Now HERE'S where things get promising all around.

    GAME MECHANICS NORMALLY FALL WITHIN THE REALM OF PATENTS.  And I have
never heard anyone claim that there were any TFT mechanics original enough
to
qualify for patent (there probably were some, way back then) or that a
patent
was filed in the proper time frame (12 months from publication back in 1976
and 1977!), and anyway, if there was such a patent, it would've expired in
1994.  For example, Bob Kiyosaki's "Rich Dad Poor Dad" game is patented,
unlike TFT, but that patent will eventually expire.   Patents cannot be
renewed.

    TFT GAME MECHANICS MAY WELL BE AVAILABLE TO ANYONE... but don't call it
"The Fantasy Trip", since DCG owns that name.  Don't use the original
materials in any way shape or form, HT owns that.  (Unless maybe you're the
original copyright owner...)  And see below regarding the written words and
artwork of the TFT materials!

    3)    Copyright of Howard Thompson

    HOWEVER, THE COPYRIGHTS OF HT AND HIS HEIRS AND ASSIGNS MUST BE
RESPECTED
for the things they actually cover.

    (If you're not giving this email blank looks by now, you've got a mind
as
twisty as a lawyer.)

    Look, Howard Thompson (or MGC, his corp) had a valid and legal copyright
in TFTs actual materials and "choice of expression".  If anyone could
contest
that, it would have been SJ, but (correct me if I'm wrong on the history
here), SJ signed that away during the court case in which he got back OGRE
and
GEV.  So, someone out there presumably owns, via HT, copyright in TFT's
materials and "choice of expression", that is, the words written by SJ, for
example, the story of the Mnoren and Cidri and Flavius versus Wulf and all
the
rest of the text of the original books.

    BUT COPYRIGHT DOESN'T COVER 'MECHANICS', it covers "EXPRESSION".

    "THE SWORD OF SHANNARA", also known as "Lord of the Rings Lite".  Put it
this way: you can grab someone's ideas, as long as you don't grab their
expression of their ideas.  Or put it like this: D&D bred T&T and TFT and
Legends so on... but they are all distinct, even though they share very
basic
ideas: fantasy worlds, dungeons, role playing, attributes, GM/DM, EP,
beastieries, and so on and on... but they are not copyright infringements!

    Here's another one: LORDS OF UNDEREARTH  could be held to not be a
copyright infringement of TFT, since it has different words all the way
through.  (Now that example is REALLY stretching it, but I'm trying to
convey
the principle here.  Anyway, LOU was owned by HT too.)

    But what about the weapons table?  That must be pretty much the same
from
TFT to LOU, which *might* make it copyright infringement if you or I did
that.

    Here's the hypothetical payoff:

    As long as you write up your own **expression** of the rule mechanics
and
tables, you might theoretically be OK versus HTs valid copyright.  As long
as
you did *not* name it "The Fantasy Trip", you'd be theoretically OK versus
DCGs presumably valid TFT trademark.   But for example, you'd have to come
up
with your own weapons table.  Not paraphrase it, judges ain't stupid.
Paraphrasing can get you in trouble.  Your own actual weapons table.
However,
think of all the changes you could make to the weapons table ANYWAY.  I
mean,
the thing about ST limits on what weapons a figure can take, followed by DX
pluses and minuses if a character ends up with the wrong weapon anyway...?
We
have no inspiration on improving that?

    Is this nuts enough yet?

    Caveats, legal and practical.

    I see one really major legal caveat and tons of potential little ones.
It
seems to me that a court might rule that the game mechanics were
"expression"
of the idea of role playing, rather than that the rules books were
expressions
of the game mechanics.  Under a ruling like that anything "TFT-style"
*would*
be a copyright infringement.  Even that hurdle can probably be overcome the
same way DCG overcame it though: just write *your own rules mechanics*
inspired by the feel of TFT I.  ((Sorry George, if Legends was not inspired
by
TFT 1 then I humbly apologize.))  Now, I've personally never met anyone who
had any suggestions for improving TFT mechanics (yeah right) but I'm sure
one
could scratch around and come up with a system based on TFT but a big
improvement.

    Practical caveats: anyone can sue anyone for any reason, and getting
sued
is NEVER worth it.  If I ever do this thing, I'll be doing a LOT of legal
research first and writing mechanics and tables that are very different
indeed, but which stay close to the "feel" of TFT.   And the name will be a
lot different too.  The smart thing to do would be to NOT do it, instead,
find
HT and beg.

    Another practical caveat:  Like Kirk said, there ain't no money in it.
The DCG people are evidently breaking their backs trying to get this thing
out, why not just go to them and cooperate on a "Legends II" system which
incorporates things you like about TFT and deletes the weaknesses in Legends
and TFT?  ((Hey, that's you, Mr. Dew.  Comments?))

Hmmm!!!     Another practical caveat:  Kirk, are you an agent provocatuer
for
DCG or SJG?   ;)   ((OK, based on those later posts I'm guessing that one is
a
resounding NO.))

Also:  Side note: I've still not checked into the "unavailability" defense
for
things like downloads of TFT I.  That might be a defense to offering
downloads, but downloads wouldn't do much good for creating a new and better
game based on TFT.

    Glad to clarify that!  (yeah ha ha Craig)  Why do they call lawyers
octopuses?  Because we always say "On the other hand" about seven times per
sentence.

    Other lawyers: PLEASE rip into this, it isn't some kind of dearly held
legal opinion, I'm spinning fast and furious here.  Any holes in the
reasoning
should be picked open and explored.  For that matter, are there other
avenues
that might get more TFT-style games back out there?

    Theoretically, there's a way through the thicket, a la the course
charted
by DCG.  But... why not just get DCG interested in a bigger re-write?

((Like I said, I wrote this stream of consious style before reading
everyone's
posts on the topic.  Sorry if I said anything offensive, Mr. Dew, Kirk,
Chris,
PvK, etc.  AND, I'm coming to see the value in trying it independent of DCG.
That is, George Dew has his vision of an RPG, and he implemented it.  Anyone
with a different vision could compete with George, if you've got the
energy!))

   (( Different thread: David Jackson:  We have a David Jackon down in Baton
Rouge.  David, do you have any connection to SJ?  ))

    ((OK, is all that nosy enough or what?  Nobody has to answer any #@!
questions they don't want to answer!))

    Craig B
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