In response to Neil:
As for why a +4 DX to hit, I think it is easier to hit if you're grapplingand it allows for targeted shots. Think of two warriors "embracing" while attacking with knives. In "real life", they both are probably dead. Infantasy gaming, one may get a hit in first. First rule about knife fightingis- never get in one! I don't know if there is a second rule.But it is not as easy to hot for the same sort of damage as when the figure isadjacent. There isn't as much room to swing.And I've been knifeless in a knife fight. It's not all that certain that bothare probably dead.
I've was thinking about knives in a TFT HTH context where, it seems, both guys are rolling around on the ground with knives. A "knife fight" is where both are committed to the engagement with blades. This is different from someone, perhaps unarmed, being attack by someone with a knife. Someone trained in self-defense has the ability to evade the attack and perhaps even disarm the assailant. There is a difference, I think, between ground grappling with knives and a "stand up fight" where one or both parties have knives and can actively move and act offensively or defensively. If you're grappling with knives and both guys are stabbing away at each other, you're extremely lucky not to be severely injured or dead. Training may help to trap or pin but there is only so much that traning can provide in such circumstances. If both are trained...yikes. I'm interested in your fight. Was it stand up or on the ground? I take it you're trained in some martial art.
Apart from edged weapons in HTH, very little damage can be USUALLY be donein HTH unless you are trained. Sure, someone could mount the opponent andbash his head into the floor until it comes apart but a "stun" or somethingusually precedes this. Training usually teaches how to hit in close quarters, hit vital or particularly effective targets, pressure points, choking, joint locks/joint tearing and throws. This is what UC talents represent.So how much training does a regular weapon Talent give in HTH? Also, the system is rather biased towards striking damage, and doesn't count rending damage,like most grapplers inflict.
I agree that the rending damage is practically non-existent. I think I have the game BUSHIDO around here somewhere. Even though it was a game focussing on medieval Nippon, the grappling rules were ...well, I can't remember so they must not have been that interesting! It could be represented in the game by first having the grappler "pin" the opponent, which represents some initial stage of mobilization. On successive turns, the grappler could inflict his HTH damage based on strength with no armor, magical or otherwise, protection. If has has an arm and does the requisite damage, then the guy loses the use of his arm per the aimed shot rules. This should be a higher UC skill.
Good question about regular weapon Talents. It's possible that, apart from knives, sticks, and the like, they would have very little effect once in HTH. They could play a part at the time entry into HTH is attempted. After I sent my post, I wondered to myself why a weapon talent wouldn't play a part in either entering HTH or refusing HTH. Not sure. For entering HTH, you might feignt with the weapon or attack the opponent's weapon to create an opening. For refusing HTH, you are pretty much taking a swipe at the enemy as he approaches.
ground. With skilled fighters, all of this could be easily represented by modifying die rolls based upon the differences in the levels of training.Even entering on a good boxer is difficult.
Very true, but still there's still significant training. One thing Bushido did was have a skill for striking and one for grappling. Basic UC talents probably teach the same thing regardless of style: good footwork and maximizing striking power. Boxing, of course limited to punching, karate/kung-fu has punches, kicks, takedowns and, some styles, still teach some ground fighting. Jujutsu/Judo varies by school as to whether it is primarily stand up grappling or ground fighting. Basic grappling focussing on balance, entering HTH, refusing HTH and, perhaps, some striking or throw as a counter to an attack.
UC talents, whether in HTH or not, should allow for more damage, at leastagainst unarmored or lightly armored opponents. Against armored opponents,damage from striking could/should be limited for chainmail and above, although targeted striking to "vulnerable" and unarmored targets could beconsidered. I suppose higher UC talents would be allowed to inflict damageagainst an opponent with any type of armor. Most "low level" guys justaren't going to punch full metal plate. I particularly like the nerve strike in one of the text UC talents. Grapplinge damage (immobilization and joint damage) would probably be effective, perhaps even more against a guy who isadjDX-challenged due to heavy armor.I disagree. The amount of armour on the opponent shouldn't matter all that much. I can still break an arm in armour. But the mechanic for it should probably be that armour counts, because it counts everywhere else, and all things being equal, it's a bit harder to get a good damagine grip on someone in plate. It's not that there aren't places to grab, there's plenty of those, but a lot of thegrips that one gets used to getting on the unarmoured aren't there.
Are you talking about breaking an arm through the armor or attacking the joint through rending or striking? Is this striking damage or rending damage? I agree that you could still successfully attack joints. Attacking metal armor should be limited to higher skills which represent a developed and conditioned body through makiwara training or iron palm, whatever you want to call it. Heck, that could be a skill in and of itself. I must admit, while I have struck pads, wood, etc...I've never hit medieval metal armor. I think that it would take considerable skill IN A FIGHTING SITUATION to strike such heavy metal armor and transfer enough power to damage the person without harming their hand.
UC talents should be useable outside HTH for anyone even in armor. UC talents in HTH should be useable by anyone with leather armor or less on.UC Talents ought to be effective regardless of armour worn. I'm convinced that the equivalent training in the real world works regardless of armour. It's only to keep D&D Monks from taking over the world that they don't get to wear armour.
I don't know. Sparring with modern light training gear is different from sparring without it. IIRC, aikijutsu was used by armored samurai, perhaps sometimes in conjunction with a tanto. I don't think they tried to punch through armor of their opponent but used aiki to take down the enemy, rip joints and maybe finish him off with the tanto. So there is some truth to what you say. Maybe you're right, let the -dx adjustment take care of the decision to wear or not wear armor.
Thanks for the Response.Your thoughts are appreciated. Aidan
Neil Gilmore raito@raito.com ===== Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com. Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message body "unsubscribe tft"
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