Re: (TFT) Interesting re: Thrown Pole Weapons

[Richard Walters <rick.walters@yahoo.com>]

Let's extrapolate a bit.  The way I am reading it, the issue is the damage done and not the ability to throw the weapon.  I think we all agree that the weapon must be marked as "throwable" for it to get any damage bonus through momentum.  If you throw your halberd, it's not weighted properly and will fly end over end, doing only minimal damage as would a rock or chair if you threw it.

The principle problem I have with allowing double damage on a thrown pole weapon is that it extends the range of the weapon too dramatically.  Presently if a party of 4 meets up with another party of 4 and only one fighter of all the people present has a spear, then the party with the spear has a tactical advantage which must be considered.  The unbalancing element of a charge, it's seductive power, is the length of the weapon and it's ability to skip normal DX rules in determining who hits first (Adv. Mele page 12).  So, the spear can already give a lower DX fighter the advantage of striking first against a higher DX defender if they are not also wielding a pole weapon.  That's pretty powerful.  

Adding on top of this is the damage bonus.  The charge or set does the double damage bonus.  

So, let's ignore what Advanced Mele says on page 12, "When a polearm is used in regular combat (not charging), it does only normal damage, and is rolled in it's turn like any other weapon."  Let's stay with the ambiguous Mele rules and assume you can throw a spear for the double damage.  Let's stay with our two groups of 4, and separate them with 8 hexes.  Group 1 (the heroes) loses initiative and is forced to move first.  Now, under normal circumstances, they would look across the field and see the spearman and realize that if they move into range of the spearman's charge, someone is going to be defending or attempting to soak a double damage strike.  With this option, Group 1 would normally choose to stay tight and shift facing so they cover one another.  

But, if the spear can be thrown for double damage, then the spearman can move up to half of his MA and then throw.  So, if he's on point, he might move forward 5 hexes and throw at a DX -3 at the lead party member. This means that Group 1 must consider soaking a double damage blow aimed at anyone in the party in the first round if they move or not.  So, the advantage of staying put seems to be diminished by the new threat.  

Of course, who's afraid of a double damage spear shot?  The damage is only 1d (I'm assuming you can't throw a spear with two hands to get the 1d + 1).  After all, that's only 2d damage which is what you would take if you are hit by a boomerang.  Groups don't normally deviate a move according to a boomerang's worth of damage.

Ok, I'll grant that.  But, what if it is a silver-tipped, fine spear (+1 dam) with some clearly magical feathers dangling from the shaft near the tip (+2 dam). Or maybe the spear isn't magical.  Maybe the fighter is simply using the "spear thrower" device which grants the +2 damage. So, it's not absurd to see a speardoing 1d + 3 or 2d - 3 depending on how some people scale item damage plusses.  This raises the potential maximum double damage strike to 18.  That's heavy crossbow damage!  And, I think most groups will always consider their movement when there's a heavy crossbow user ready to fire in the opponent's group.  

But, once the sprear is thrown, then the advantage is gone, isn't it?  Maybe the double damage bonus is what is needed to make people throw a spear in the first place.  Because, unless you're desperate to disable a foe, obstructed by terrain or able to ready another weapon quickly, hardly no one throws a spear.

Alright.  All that said, what about non pole weapons?  Logically, why is a spear so special that it gets the double damage bonus due to momentum when a hatchet doesn't?  There clearly isn't any support in either ruleset for granting double damage for a thrown hatchet, no matter how far you move.  And I guess the only logical argument that would support the spear's extra damage is it's weight and piercing focus of energy.  But, what if you could throw a knife/dagger/hatchet with twice the velocity?

Ok, I've just thrown all this out there for discussion really.  Personally, I'm used to playing with the Advanced Mele rules and I allow a charge or set with only one hex of movement between the parties.  And, pole weapons do normal damage when they are not being used in a charge.

Good Fortune,
Richard









----- Original Message ----
From: Cris Fuhrman <fuhrmanator@gmail.com>
To: tft@brainiac.com
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:35:47 AM
Subject: Re: (TFT) Interesting re: Thrown Pole Weapons

Sounds like it's legal according to Melee. But, as you point out, it's not
possible in AM. I'd bet that the AM change is a fix to this "loophole" in
Melee.

It would be interesting to play-test it your way to see how unbalanced (or
not) it makes the game.

Thinking about double-damage from a thrown spear, I see that damage for
Spear has been nerfed over the iterations of Melee to AM. That is, in
various copies of Melee, damage for a Spear is listed as 1+2, then 1+1, and
finally just 1 in Advanced Melee (when used 1-handed).
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