Re: (TFT) Hanging Magic in TFT.

[Joseph Beutel <mejobo@comcast.net>]

"I can not believe I'm the only one capable of
imagining far beyond such narrow confines."

What have you been playing? 

I know that I haven't been in a "dungeon" in any of my games in years. 
To be completely honest most games I'm in right now feel like they're trying a little too hard to imagine beyond the 'narrow confines' of older games. Certainly I enjoy these campaigns, but to a certain degree I miss the relatively sand-box (essentially impossible to railroad) style of GMing which seems to be a bit dead right now.

But how is that related to the dungeon crawl? By the fact that a GM can't (or at least in my opinion, shouldn't) 'cheat' to railroad. The lowest scale (i.e. requiring the least work/time to be put into its construction and also use)  RPG sandbox I can think of is a dungeon crawl or similar. In essence any sandbox requires the GM to establish rules to create the world-- whether it be procedural rules for generating new paths in the dungeon or the hard rule of "there are three goblins in the Red Room." Then the players explore-- not the setting, but in a sense the rules themselves, allowing creation. One could make a distinction between the rules that are known and manipulated ("If I increase crop yield my castle will have greater stores of food and can take an increase in population or survive the next siege longer") and those that should remain only known as abstraction to the GM ("I generate new random NPCs with the following functions…"). 

As I see it when one dreams of bigger things they dream in two directions. They can increase the size and scope of the sandbox "dungeon" or they can dream of directly implementing some greater "role play" (be it plot, character attachment, character relationships, deepness of themes, etc) onto the same old model. 

My issue: The vast majority of the time those who dream in the latter direction don't put the work in, and if they do the most effective way (barring a few exceptions) is to make the sandbox bigger. 
Those exceptions tend to be highly targeted RPs that in my experience should be one-offs. If you want to explore a particular theme that works fairly well, but it is much more powerful to explore that theme through a wider sandbox world where the theme comes into play, but if you only have one afternoon… 

Still, I think it is incorrect to assert that the state of RPGs right now is hack and slash dungeon crawl. And much as I love TFT, it is certainly designed around something like that, though this does leave room for the players to attach other systems to complete the sandbox… 

In fact, in many ways this is preferable to a poorly designed sandbox, as it allows imaginations and real-world research to determine anything that isn't 'conflicted' or otherwise abstracted by the game system.

On Apr 28, 2015, at 2:58 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote:

> When considering the athletic magic user in TFT I find it interesting that
> in most instances the Figure is contemplated en tant qu'individu or as a
> single individual. Why wouldn't a Wizard be accompanied by a few
> apprentices with knowledge of the Aid spell in the manner of a Knight with
> their retinue of squires and pages? As to the deep magics capable of
> cracking stone tables this begs the question of sourcing magic to begin
> with IMHO such that the addition of hanging magic on nothing is given
> a raison d'etre that explains why this is possible when the more commonly
> accepted method is the creation of magical items which would seem to suffer
> a value hit in the face of such advanced methods with the creation of such
> items itself an advanced aspect of study that would loose some appeal for
> many magical methodologists mayhaps a minority making mercedary mercantilism
> the mantra of magical mastery mindful of mammon and modus decimandi
> as modus operandi. This of course opens up a entirely new arena of conflict
> and engaging the wealthy merchant on financial footing without fortune is
> the same folly as fighting a martial master in the combat arena without
> arms or challenging the master of magics to a duel of spells when the ways
> of mystical manipulation are a mystery unto You.
> Another approach to finding more balance might be the addition of fatigue
> costs for fighter types allowing athletic Actions along similar lines as
> spells. This method opens up a myriad of options for play that flow
> naturally from fST and in allowing fighter types feats of physical prowess
> that temp Players to expend fST to preform the Wizards main dynamic for
> effective Action becomes mirrored in the martial Hero's options. It's still
> the addition of new mechanics but without hanging the burden on magic if
> You take My meaning. Just spitballing by the by. Discussion fodder FWIW not
> fault finding of anything put forward so far. Far be it from Me to berate
> the addition of mechanics after My own folly fully indulges in the same
> again and again. My only caveat concerning such tradition is the lack of
> any formal system to help with the translation from one table to another.
> I'm lazy and look to make My work as simple as possible to pick up from My
> table and drop onto another in a straightforward fashion. Home-brewed
> additions harbor the effect of pushing the game to a same in title
> only separation that flies in the face of such efforts. As home-brewed
> additions are traditional to the point of a necessary feature of white-box
> D&D to even play the thing at all it flies in the face of RPG roots to
> imagine attempting such additions were it not plainly folly in the first
> place but I've seen little in the way of offering any objective procedure
> for making these modifications and see the possibility not so much for
> solutions as for a few small steps toward objectivity in addressing rules
> additions in a more formal sense. More important still is the possibility
> for improved communication such added definition can bring which is
> fundamental to the mediums unique strength of a cooperative experience of
> shared imaginative creation which hinges on clear communication that
> focuses each Players imagination on the same mental image in it's important
> details. The impossible perfection that is the goal is for all the Players
> to be imagining is such agreement that there would be no difference between
> the mental images imagined by each if they were projected upon a screen in
> the manner of a motion picture. See mirror neurons for a foundation of this
> concept in Our physiological makeup. I'm on a direct path to ending up tits
> up in a field with one ear and a sucking chest wound over this but not
> without referent for the methods to My madness. I've been avoiding making
> My philosophical apology for My occupation with a passtime in public
> perception but there is issues of very real import at play in this play and
> the model of destructive action as the only path to advancement is purely
> unacceptable as a defining aspect of play to pass on to those who come
> after us. Better that gaming go the way of the dodo than continue with that
> model much less hobbled with aspects that are the strengths from other
> creative mediums cooperative play models poorly instead of featuring the
> strengths the table-top holds as the primary elements of focus. If D&D
> editions were in service of the Player community the ruleset would evidence
> a refinement of established concepts rejecting only what proved fatally
> flawed and in its core evidencing continuity and consistently less change
> instead of essentially a completely different game the same in name only
> which is evidence of a marketing ploy to sell a new set of product in an
> endless cycle (note 5th edition is double that or more in actual editions
> offered over the course of its 4 decades history)  that preys on the
> community with such pointless reworking of its foundations then
> regurgitating its add on material cloaked in new artwork and statistics
> rather than taking the more challenging path of perfecting its base system
> and growing in the content it offers in supplement. Four decades of the
> same destructive focus evidencing no growth is a horrible misuse of the
> mediums potential and a moral affront to the soul of the hobby and the
> community of highly imaginative people drawn to its potential for
> imaginative expression but arrested in the development of the full
> flowering of that expression by the frozen innovation cloaked in the guise
> of the continual reworking of the destructive play concept that never
> ventures further in its depth or focus. As We near a half century of RPG
> history We deserve a concept that exhibits some growth and a grasp on the
> possibilities offered by constructive models added to play and some
> downside to the destruction that still fails to even require a cleanup of
> the corpses from all the killing. I don't mean that the model should be
> abandoned entirely. The classic hack and slash dungeon crawl is a valid
> form of entertaining play but I'm trying to point out that the potential
> for so much more continues to remain unexplored coupled with real issues of
> underling message when serving as the sole example of what a RPG is (and
> the medium IS the message to quote McLuhan) that I find Myself tilting at
> the ever cycling gristmill of the RPG marketing monster in a vein hope that
> others might see the importance of taking responsibility for their hobby as
> well and demand the progress and growth that should have been evidenced
> long ago from what in potential is in fact a new medium capable of artistic
> expression in its full application. Not every daydream is fixed upon
> violence and plunder. I can not believe I'm the only one capable of
> imagining far beyond such narrow confines. This cannot continue to stand. I
> owe it to all I have invested of Myself in My chosen hobby I hold so dear
> to see it free to be more than this hobbled Harrison Bergeron harnessed with
> the constraints of those that would hamper its fullness to control it in
> pursuit of profit for profits sake knowing that unfettered the dominate
> model repeating and repeating the same established cycle suddenly fails to
> encompass the whole and as the carefully crafted control is lost so goes
> the profit coupled to it and thus it falls to the likes of You and Me if We
> are to ever see more from Our hobby that can be if freed to be. Screed
> fini. Pardon Me.
> 
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Peter von Kleinsmid <pvk@oz.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Rick, I understand. I was just offering feedback FWIW.
>> 
>> For the magic fist, I might use that as a way to assess cost, but would
>> probably have the actual mechanic just be a save to avoid falling within a
>> certain radius. That spell also begs for some good generic fire rules,
>> since it will tend to start a large natural fie.
>> 
>> I actually wrote a somewhat similar system for high-powered wizardry for
>> GURPS magic back in 1990. Like yours, I specified that it was for wizards
>> who had developed a deeper understanding and mastery beyond individual
>> spells. They could cast much more powerful spells, but for this they would
>> use other techniques for gathering lots of energy, and those techniques
>> were both closely-guarded secrets, and generally required decades of study
>> and attunement. These techniques had their disadvantages, requirements and
>> side-effects when used too excessively. So in contrast to your system,
>> there was a cost to deal with after the spell was cast, not just before. As
>> much as I dislike the forgetfulness aspect in D&D magic, I also had a
>> forgetfulness component, but it was the opposite - these wizards knew so
>> much abstract metamagical stuff as well as so many spells (even several
>> ways to cast basically the same effect), that remembering a specific spell
>> exactly and immediately could sometimes be a problem, but not because they
>> just cast it. The effect was that they might not be so good at coming up
>> with an immediate spell to counter a sudden problem immediately, but if you
>> gave them time to work something out, they could conjure up something quite
>> powerful.
>> 
>> At 10:21 PM 4/24/2015, Rick Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Peter,
>>>  The point of this was to allow some wizards to have the D&D style
>>> choices of trying to fit a hung spell to the unexpected situation.  Also
>>> to allow people to do the cool things Merlin did in the Amber novels.
>>> 
>>>  If you don't want that D&D dynamic, the whole point of these rules
>>> is rather missing.
>>> 
>>>  That said, if you object to the automatic magic fist hit, as GM, have
>>> them do something else.  These rules are not trying to make a way
>>> of chaining TFT spells in a rigid way, but to allow GM's and PC's to
>>> invent new spells that have some approximate balance to each
>>> other in terms of cost and difficulty.
>>> 
>> 
>> =====
>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
>> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message body
>> "unsubscribe tft"
>> 
> 
> =====
> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message body
> "unsubscribe tft"


=====
Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message body
"unsubscribe tft"