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Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
I think it really all depends as to wether you look at TFT as a game
with tactical movement rules, or a real world combat simulation. You can
come close to both in a game, but your bound to have overlapping issues.
I think that's what's happening here.
The one hex charge rule may not satisfy the real world combat simulation
gamers here, but from a game standpoint, I'm OK with it. In fact I think
it's a fundamental rule in the tactical movement rules that makes up the
game. Perhaps our feeble lunging idea is just our way to kinda justify
what the rule was modeling in the real world. As you've pointed out its
logic crumbles when you apply real world situations to it. But to
introduce some sort of realism into the game you'd have to start with
rules that might include extra movement, weight, mass, getting past
someones guard, etc. And that puts you moving further away from the
intent of the author of the TFT rules and into HT territory, or even
Gurps. And I'd rather not go there. I like my TFT simple.
Cheers,
David
__________________________________________
David O. Miller
Miller Design/Illustration
www.davidomiller.com
2 Dean Court
East Northport, NY 11731
(631) 266-6875
On Oct 20, 2015, at 5:41 PM, "Edward Kroeten"
<ekroeten@farmersagent.com> wrote:
> That doesn't fit with actual combat results though. Pikes and spears
wer
> e good against charging horses and men because the horses provided the
fo
> rce for the blow. Infantry that went up against pikes and spearmen
walke
> d up and were able to penetrate the line without too much trouble.
>
> A lunging spear is no more effective than a lunging sword point.
There
> is no more force behind it, Force equals mass times acceleration. So
dif
> ference in mass of two weapons will be almost nothing compared to your
bo
> dy and the point won't go any faster on a spear then a sword.
>
> 3 hexes is 4 meters which allows you, if not to get to your max
speed, a
> t least to generate a lot more force. Adrian Peterson (and many
others)
> says it takes 7 yards to get to max speed so we are erring on the
conserv
> ative side of the equation.
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> Edward Kroeten
> Farmers Agent
>
> 7100 Stevenson Blvd Suite 105
> Fremont, CA 94538
>
>
> Office Phone 510-646-1500
>
> Mobile Phone 510-579-0135
> Fax 510-438-6875
> Website: www.kroeteninsurance.com
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> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: 01:59 PM PDT, 10/20/2015
> From: "David O. Miller" <davidomiller@verizon.net>
> To: tft@brainiac.com
> Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have always felt that the issue was with the nomenclature of the
w
> ord
> "charge". It sets up a precedent in your mind that the physics
is
> off
> and that you've got to build up speed in a run, or "charge" to
get
> the
> extra damage.
>
>
> I prefer the word "lunge". The way I see it is that you about 5
fe
> et
> from your opponent (in game terms one hex away), and you throw
you
> r body
> weight behind a sudden forward lunge. All of that force behind
the
> lunge
> is concentrated on a small, sharp point which can now penetrate
ch
> ain
> mail, slide off of plate and find a joint to penetrate, or
simply
> punch
> through leather.
>
>
> Once past the armor your victim is then impaled on basically a
lon
> g
> spike and takes a very nasty, deep, puncture wound that plays
havo
> c with
> his internal organs, which to me warrants the extra damage.
>
>
> As many of you know I always felt that it was the doubling of
the
> damage, especially in the two larger pole arms, that was the
real
> problem. That's why our group came up with the +1d6, rather than
t
> he
> doubling. It keeps the smaller pole arms basically as written,
whi
> le
> having the added bonus of making the two larger ones slightly
less
>
> devastating. If you start adding in rules such as moving 3 hexes
i
> n a
> straight line then you give up some of the chess like, strategy
el
> ements
> that the game has. For example I want to move first so that I
can
> back
> away from a fallen foe and lunge at him again, before he stands
up
> . That
> kinda thing.
>
>
> David
> __________________________________________
> David O. Miller
> Miller Design/Illustration
> www.davidomiller.com
>
>
> 2 Dean Court
> East Northport, NY 11731
> (631) 266-6875
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2015, at 4:28 PM, "Edward Kroeten"
> <ekroeten@farmersagent.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Okay sorry about that I just checked my rule book and we had mad
> e the
> cha
>> nge to three hexes as a house rule. The reason was that the phys
> ics
> just
>> don't work if I rush from 4 feet away I haven't generated enough
>
> force.
>> You simply can't build up to the speed in that amount of space e
> ven
> with
>> a sharp stick.
>>
>>
>> In that case the only time you would not get the charge is where
> sword
> g
>> ot initiative from outside 5 hexes, had spear move first then ra
> n to
> a s
>> ide hex (certainly possible but not guaranteed), and then on the
> next
> ini
>> tiative roll sword also wins and shifts into the front hexes mak
> ing
> spear
>> engaged and unable to charge. If using these rules it makes avoi
> ding
> a
>> charge very difficult.
>>
>>
>> Again I have always used 3 hexes in the general direction (no st
> raight
> h
>> ex line limit) for charges so getting within 3 hexes negated the
>
> charge o
>> r hitting (actual damage) them from the side or rear (another ho
> use
> rule
>> to avoid the unrealistic reactions).
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> Received: 10:56 AM PDT, 10/20/2015
>> From: PvK <pvk@oz.net>
>> To: <tft@brainiac.com>
>> Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
>>
>>
>>
>> In Advanced Melee anyway, if two figures start out not adjacent,
>
> or
>> if they start adjacent but one figure moves away and back (even
> only
> one
>> hex) then it is a Charge Attack situation.
>>
>>
>> Advanced Melee also specifically says that a pole-weapon user
> enga
>> ged from behind, if he hasn't moved yet that turn, can just chan
> ge
> facing
>> and get the +2DX double damage charge defense. Best sword can do
> is
> not
>> charge himself, so spear doesn't get the +2DX. See Advanced Mele
> e page
> 14
>> , right column.
>>
>>
>> So in Advanced Melee, there's no way to maneuver around a charge
>
> s
>> ituation even by winning initiative twice in a row in a one-on-o
> ne
> duel.
>> In Advanced Melee, it'll be a charge 100% of the time.
>>
>>
>> It's not quite as explicit in plain Melee, but it seems to me
> this
>> is likely SJ's original intent there, too.
>>
>>
>> --- jlv61560@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> I don't think a spear gets a charge if he's actually engaged.
> He'
>> d ha
>> ve to disengage first and get some distance.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> body
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>>
>>
>>
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