Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers

[Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com>]

Erm, I'll beg to differ with you on pretty much all of that.  I've alr
eady pointed out that the Spanish Tercios, Swiss Pikemen, and Polish Lancer
s (though that last is cavalry and can be discounted for that reason if you
 like) were the preeminent combat forces of their day -- and that was in th
e face of gunpowder.  Spearmen, it will be admitted, are less effectiv
e in a siege situation than swordsmen (and archers are), but in open battle
, don't discount the effect of spearmen.

It's also worth noting that the cheapness of the spear to manufacture was a
 primary reason why it was, in fact, the most commonly used weapon througho
ut the pre-gunpowder period -- that, plus training a spearman to be effecti
ve costs a lot less time than trying to teach someone to use a sword effici
ently.  You can turn a peasant into a reasonable spearman in a few day
s.  Turning that same peasant into a reasonable swordsman is probably 
going to take weeks or even months.  And, of course, as I've already p
ointed out, the spear is so much cheaper and quicker to manufacture than a 
sword is....

And finally, in terms of damage -- an impaling attack is far more effective
 in killing an opponent than a slashing attack is.  Now a slashing att
ack might be more effective at disabling an opponent, but the fact of the m
atter is that if I stick a spear in your guts, you're a lot more likely to 
die in the long run than you are if I hamstring you with sword cut. 
 

As far as bronze age cavalry goes, other than horse archers, they really we
ren't very effective until the Goths brought the stirrup with them as they 
invaded the Roman Empire.  At that point only did cavalry become the m
ost dangerous unit on the field of battle.  Imagine, if you will, a kn
ight without stirrups trying to charge someone.

      From: Edward Kroeten <ekroeten@farmersagent.com>
 To: tft@brainiac.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:18 PM
 Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
   
If you look at history the spear, halberd and even the pike were never th
e dominate weapon in the field post bronze age (Greeks and Romans).  T
hey
 aren't particularly hard to learn and they are cheap so that isn't the r
eason they weren't more in use.  The fact is they just weren't as effe
cti
ve as the cutting and bashing weapons in producing damage.  Cavalry ma
y h
ave been king, but many troops fought on the ground and only a small prop
ortion used spears as primary weapons.
  

  

  

  

    

      

        

          

            

              

                

                  Edward Kroet
en
                    Farme
rs Agent  

                    7100 
Stevenson Blvd Suite 105
                    Fremo
nt, CA 94538
                  

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 510-646-1500    

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e Phone 510-579-0135
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te: www.kroeteninsurance.com  

                  

                    

                  

                    

                  

                    

                  

                

              

            

          

        

      

    

  

  

  

  

  ------ Original Message ------
    Received: 02:50 PM PDT, 10/20/2015
    From: Rick Smith <rick_ww@lightspeed.ca>
    To: tft@brainiac.com
    Subject: Re: (TFT) Spear vs. Shortsword maneuvers
    

    

    

    

      In my campaign, anyone who wants to use pole weapons p
icks up
        running sometimes. Makes sense.
        

        Warm regards, Rick.
        

        

        On 2015-10-20, at 2:25 PM, David O. Miller wrot
e:
        > Because I can do it in one turn. Back away fr
om a fallen foe o
ne hex,
        > then charge back in. It makes winning initiat
ive important to 
fallen
        > figures vs pole weapon users. They need to st
and up first.
        >
        > In the system of running three hexes I now ha
ve to back up fur
ther, and
        > by doing so I can't charge back in because I'
ll use more than 
half my
        > movement doing all this running around. This 
changes the tacti
cs of the
        > game from what SJ meant as far as I'm concern
ed. Unless you le
t people
        > simply run around in some sort of weird three
 hex loop, and th
en charge
        > someone. Which to me just seems almost comica
l.
        >
        > But I hear you Rick. Different tastes huh? Me
, I stick with th
e lunge
        > concept. It's the best solution I've found wi
thout extra paddi
ng of the
        > rules.
        > __________________________________________
        > David O. Miller
        > Miller Design/Illustration
        > www.davidomiller.com
        >
        > 2 Dean Court
        > East Northport, NY 11731
        > (631) 266-6875
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Oct 20, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Rick Smith <rick
_ww@lightspeed.ca
> wrote:
        >
        >> I don't see how backing up so you can charge
 forward reduces 
the
        >> tactical maneuvering of the game.
        >>
        >> If by "chess like" you mean that the units d
on't back up befo
re moving
        >> forward sure.
        >>
        >> Anyway, if you do not like people charging f
orward for more d
amage,
        >> that is fine, but I won't play that way - I'
m happy with the 
both the
        >
        >> extra damage from charges and the 3 hexes ch
arges (tho I don'
t
        >> require the 3 hexes to be on the hex grain).
        >>
        >> Warm regards, Rick
        >>
        >>
        >> On 2015-10-20, at 1:54 PM, David O. Miller w
rote:
        >>> I have always felt that the issue was with 
the nomenclature 
of the
        > word
        >>> "charge". It sets up a precedent in your mi
nd that the physi
cs is off
        >
        >>> and that you've got to build up speed in a 
run, or "charge" 
to get
        > the
        >>> extra damage.
        >>>
        >>> I prefer the word "lunge". The way I see it
 is that you abou
t 5 feet
        >
        >>> from your opponent (in game terms one hex a
way), and you thr
ow your
        > body
        >>> weight behind a sudden forward lunge. All o
f that force behi
nd the
        > lunge
        >>> is concentrated on a small, sharp point whi
ch can now penetr
ate chain
        >
        >>> mail, slide off of plate and find a joint t
o penetrate, or s
imply
        > punch
        >>> through leather.
        >>>
        >>> Once past the armor your victim is then imp
aled on basically
 a long
        >
        >>> spike and takes a very nasty, deep, punctur
e wound that play
s havoc
        > with
        >>> his internal organs, which to me warrants t
he extra damage.
        >>>
        >>> As many of you know I always felt that it w
as the doubling o
f the
        >>> damage, especially in the two larger pole a
rms, that was the
 real
        >>> problem. That's why our group came up with 
the +1d6, rather 
than the
        >
        >>> doubling. It keeps the smaller pole arms ba
sically as writte
n, while
        >
        >>> having the added bonus of making the two la
rger ones slightl
y less
        >>> devastating. If you start adding in rules s
uch as moving 3 h
exes in a
        >
        >>> straight line then you give up some of the 
chess like, strat
egy
        > elements
        >>> that the game has. For example I want to mo
ve first so that 
I can
        > back
        >>> away from a fallen foe and lunge at him aga
in, before he sta
nds up.
        > That
        >>> kinda thing.
        >>>
        >>> David
        >>> __________________________________________
        >>> David O. Miller
        >>> Miller Design/Illustration
        >>> www.davidomiller.com
        >>
        >>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@b
rainiac.com.
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.com with the mes
sage body
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