Re: (TFT) Shields and Feats.

[David Bofinger <bofinger.david@gmail.com>]

> As I said, we should agree to disagree on this.

Yes, but whenever you say that you follow up by attributing an extreme
position to me. In this case:

> wedded to the idea that IQ 8 is dumb, but anything higher than it isn't

Anything higher than it is in some sense less dumb. Removing one point of
IQ from the range makes a difference to starting characters because they
just don't have very many points.

If your criterion for being smart is IQ 15 then basically no starting
character is smart?

> I do think, that wanting fighters to get arbitrarily tough and well
> trained while remaining at IQ 8, is twisting TFT in a way that it is
> not designed to be.

The word arbitrarily makes this a truism - nobody gets to be a Mnoren.
Again, I feel I'm having attributed to me positions that cannot be true.

But for fairly generous definitions of arbitrary, up to say 50 points, the
statement can be true. There is zero twisting since this is basically how
TFT RAW works over a wide regime. For instance ST 25 DX 17 IQ 8 is a
perfectly reasonable concept for a killing machine. Given we are taking
about IQ 9 talents I think this more than covers the relevant regime.

> TFT has both fighters and wizards getting more
> powerful 'crunchy stuff' based on IQ.

You can to some extent build a high level character around IQ 14 and
Unarmed Combat V. And the natural armour talents are useful. But neither is
obligatory and neither is possible at low power levels. Whereas your
optional talents are both. This is a revolutionary change which affects
characters right out of the starting gate.

If that's the change you want, fair enough. I think it has some
consequences that are negative but that's to a large extent a matter of
taste. But if you're claiming your system as in the spirit of the RAW then
I think you're badly mistaken.

---
David
On 02/12/2015 10:58 AM, "Rick Smith" <rick_ww@lightspeed.ca> wrote:

> Hi David,
>   As I said, we should agree to disagree on this.  That said, having
> a fighter at IQ 9 hardly seems to be doing vast damage to the
> dumb but strong stereotype.  I mean, if you are wedded to the
> idea that IQ 8 is dumb, but anything higher than it isn't - I can see
> that you would want all the dumb fighting talents at IQ 8.  But it
> does not trouble me that smarter fighters have techniques that
> will help them in combat.
>
>   The average NPC in TFT has a IQ 10.  But I think that IQ 10 is
> none too smart.  I don't really start thinking of PC's as shrewd
> until they get to IQ 12, and I do not think of characters as smart
> until they get to IQ 15.
>
>   More generally, TFT has both fighters and wizards getting more
> powerful 'crunchy stuff' based on IQ.  Raising all three attributes is
> HOW characters improve in TFT.
>
>   GURPS is based on a new economy, "character building points".
> In GURPS, you can have fighters with huge combat ability and be
> dumb as a rock.
>
>   There is a lot to like about GURPS.  Most especially, it is easier to
> have more variety of PC's.  However, in my gaming group, the
> slower, more detailed combat rules of GURPS didn't work as well
> as the fast TFT rules.
>
>   I do think, that wanting fighters to get arbitrarily tough and well
> trained while remaining at IQ 8, is twisting TFT in a way that it is not
> designed to be.
>
>   Warm regards, Rick.
>
>
> On 2015-12-01, at 2:20 PM, David Bofinger wrote:
>
> >> I feel that a barely trained fighter SHOULD be beaten by highly skilled
>
> > adversaries.
>
> >
> > It means "he's not much in the brains department, but he knows about
> > hurting people" ceases to be a functional character. I think that's one
> of
> > the archetypes so it's probably a shame. By making IQ start at 9 you're
> > reducing the range of characters.
> >
> > I'm not talking about getting feats because you bought something else,
> I'm
> > talking about buying the feats and there is nothing else. The idea being
> > that everything written down on a character sheet is a qualitative change
> > and you should be able to tell characters with that feature apart from
> > characters without it. Changing ST 10 to ST 11 isn't a qualitative change
> > so we ditch the ST attribute, though we might still have feats that imply
> > strength and are useful in situations that ST would be useful. Feats are
> > things like "Knows the basics of using melee weapons", "Familiar with
> ships
> > and the sea", "Wears heavy armour", "Scholar", "Speaks goblinoid and is
> > familiar with goblin culture", etc.. A lot of them would be TFT talents,
> > but TFT attributes are also folded into them.
> >
> > It's not really a fully-developed idea. Something I'd like to implement.
> >
> > --
> > David
> >
> >
> > On 2 December 2015 at 05:22, Rick Smith <rick_ww@lightspeed.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi David,
> >>  Thanks for the comments.
> >>
> >>  Two handed weapons used to do one extra point of damage.
> >> In my revised weapon list they usually do 3 extra points of
> >> damage.  (The exception is pole weapons.  A two handed pole
> >> weapon does +2 damage, but then gets a x 1.5 multiplier if
> >> it charges closing the distance by 3 hexes.)
> >>
> >>  I have added lots of talents some of which come on the even
> >> number of IQ points, (e.g. IQ 10, 12, etc.).  However, to make
> >> talents easier to find, prerequisites are 2 IQ lower than the
> >> more advanced talents.  This means that given that Shield is
> >> IQ 7, then advanced shield talents will fall at IQ 9 and 11.
> >> (I've added so many talents, that this rule is actually fairly
> >> important to help people remember where to find talents.)
> >>
> >>  We will have to agree to disagree about making an IQ 8
> >> fighter obsolete.  I feel that a barely trained fighter SHOULD
> >> be beaten by highly skilled adversaries.  I am not troubled
> >> that many of the advanced fighting skills are higher IQ than
> >> 8.  That is how the TFT system is set up.  If you wanted to
> >> grab a bunch of my talents, but make them all IQ 8, it would
> >> not trouble me.
> >>
> >> The last edition of D&D that I played much was 2nd, which
> >> was before feats, so I can't comment much on them.  But if
> >> you were to write up a bunch of feats, I would read them
> >> with interest.
> >>
> >> In D&D you get more feats with higher levels.  Would your
> >> feats be based on buying DX and ST (but not IQ), or would
> >> you have another system?
> >>
> >> Warm regards, Rick.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2015-12-01, at 1:25 AM, David Bofinger wrote:
> >>> If you make shields much better, you need to make two-handed weapons
> much
> >>> better as well. Or one-handed weapons worse. Probably a bit of both.
> >>>
> >>> Caveat: This is based on what I've seen of Rick's advanced weapon
> >> talents,
> >>> which might have changed since I saw them.
> >>>
> >>> Rick, you seem to like putting all your combat expertise talents
> (shield,
> >>> weapons) at IQ 9, 11. I'm not sure why you do that but it has a couple
> of
> >>> effects I suspect are undesirable. First, IQ 9 is only just above the
> >> hard
> >>> deck of IQ 8 so it makes the classic IQ 8 fighter pretty much obsolete.
> >> The
> >>> benefits of IQ 9 talents greatly outweigh the cost of 1 point so IQ 8
> is
> >> no
> >>> longer a sweet spot. As an example:
> >>>
> >>> Fighter ST 12 DX 12 IQ 8 [Knife, Sword, Shield, Running, +3 @ IQ 8]
> >>> broadsword, small shield: 2+0, aDX 12, stops 1, parries on 12 (10%), MA
> >> 12.
> >>>
> >>> Fighter ST 11 DX 12 IQ 9: [Knife, Sword, Shield, Improved Sword, Shield
> >> 2,
> >>> +2 @ IQ 9] shortsword, small shield: 2+1, aDX 12, stops 3, parries on
> 14
> >>> (22%), MA 10.
> >>>
> >>> OK, it's not absolutely one-sided, but I know who I'd rather back in a
> >>> fight. It's a pretty huge gulf in capability. Two-handed weapons also
> >> take
> >>> a hit.
> >>>
> >>> I don't think the simple fighter should be made obsolete. Have to
> >> compete,
> >>> sure, but not get badly outcompeted by obvious analogous designs.
> >>>
> >>> Generally it tends to make the odd-IQ levels more useful than the even
> >>> IQ-levels, for anyone with an interest in melee combat. That's already
> >> true
> >>> to some extent in the standard rules, because the best stuff is, IMO,
> >>> somewhat more common at odd IQ than even, at least at lower IQ levels.
> >> IQ 8
> >>> has Seamanship/Boating/Horsemanship which might be useful but is highly
> >>> situational and anyway that doesn't count because we don't get to
> choose
> >>> whether we have IQ 8. IQ 9 has Missile Weapons which can easily be
> really
> >>> important, IQ 10 has Fencing but that's not a huge deal, IQ 11 has Two
> >>> Weapons which can be quite a big deal (along with three critical party
> >>> skills, it's a big skill monkey level), IQ 12 has nothing much, IQ 13
> has
> >>> nothing much, IQ 14 has the high level unarmed combat abilities though
> >> they
> >>> cost a fortune. Add in your special combat talents and I think
> characters
> >>> will be putting their IQ up two at a time.
> >>>
> >>> (Another feature of your weapon talents is that IQ 9 to IQ 11 is a
> >> smaller
> >>> jump than IQ 11 to IQ 13 so characters tend to stop at IQ 9 or IQ 13. I
> >>> think.)
> >>>
> >>> I'm not sure what the answer is to this. But I sort of like the idea
> that
> >>> the special abilities should be a bit more like what D&D calls feats
> and
> >>> less just "add two". Actually, my current theory of RPG design is to
> >> ditch
> >>> as many numbers as possible and describe everything by characters
> having
> >>> feats. Because feats are more fun than numbers.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> David
> >>>
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