Re: (TFT) Re: New Armor in TFT. -- David's thoughts.

[David Bofinger <bofinger.david@gmail.com>]

> Wearing armour is a skill

There's a lot to be said for making armour an ability you buy. Except
it would be weird to force characters to buy high IQ so they could
learn to wear armour. It's almost like a separate attribute.

> In my opinion, after my decades of experience, any system that tried to represent
> armour as a reduction in hits is too flawed to be realistic

To be fair, not many people have decades of experience of suffering
injury from blows that penetrated their armour. If you do, and you
continue to do this for fun, then I nod respectfully and back toward
an exit.

> The idea of classifying armour by material is also deeply flawed

It is. But Rick is right too, calling the armour "Armour I" through
"Armour V" is pretty bloodless. Don't know the answer here, maybe find
names for the suits of armour that describe their coverage rather than
their material. So one level would be called "hoplite", another
"Roman", etc..

TFT is supposed to be renaissance in some places but earlier than that
mostly. So face-hardened plate armour might exist but chain is
probably more common, pollaxes exist but halberds are probably more
common, etc.. And of course guns exist but bows and crossbows are more
common.

--
David


On 26 May 2016 at 00:23,  <raito@raito.com> wrote:
>> I assume by S Curve, Rick meant a mathematical S Curve (
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function ) and not one that
>> literally looked like an S.
>>
>> I can't personally speak to cloth, leather, chain and plate. I have worn
>> modern armor on the battlefield though so perhaps have some perspective.
>
> I can. I have worn medieval armour. A lot. And while not in modern combat
> (as every group simulating armoured combat makes compromises), in decent
> simulation.
>
>> The modern battle rattle when kitted can easily be over 50 pounds. It has
>> the same stopping power regardless of which size you get, so on average
>> smaller people are more affected by the armor than larger people but it's
>> far from linear due to sizing.
>
> It's been pretty well established the the kit for a high-end solider has
> varied little in at least the last thousand years. Always 50-70 pounds.
> The composition of what's being carried changes, but the weight doesn't
> seem to.
>
>> Do I feel Dex modifiers while wearing armor? Maybe, but not so much as you
>> might expect for its bulk and weight. Slight limits to arm movement and
>> torso bending.
>
> I feel none at all in well-fitting armour. I think Rolemaster got it
> exactly right. Wearing armour is a skill. That's why I, a fat, slow old
> man, can wear his armour all day and feel no ill effects, while those
> young strong guys are puffing after an hour.
>
>> Do I feel fatigue modifiers while wearing armor? Yes, very much so. You
>> tire much faster when running, fighting, etc with the extra weight.
>
> I don't seem to. Then again, I've been at it for close to 40 years and I'm
> probably optimizing my movements. I might have when I was in my 20's
> though.
>
>> Do I feel speed modifiers? Yep, fastest sprint was exhausting, the first
>> time I ran in armor in training I only made it a few hundred yards before
>> i
>> started feeling sick and pained... Pretty sad for someone running several
>> miles a day at the time. Walking wasn't bad, but anything faster than that
>> you are paying fatigue for it.
>
> I feel them, but really only because of the weight. I could trot as long
> in armour as out of it.
>
>> So if you are going for realism and have a game with fatigue attributes,
>> I'd look there and at MA as your primary armor penalties personally. At
>> least, based on more modern armor. But I think wearing weights is perhaps
>> universal in terms of its impacts. Do older armors also impact Dex?
>> Comparing a chain mail shirt to modern armor maybe not. A full suit of
>> jousting armor that covers joints? Probably more so
>
> One would be very silly to wear a 16th century jousting outfit in a
> battle, and no one did.
>
> In my opinion, after my decades of experience, any system that tried to
> represent armour as a reduction in hits is too flawed to be realistic.
> This doesn't mean that I object to those systems. It works well enough as
> a game mechanic in TFT.
>
> The idea of classifying armour by material is also deeply flawed,
> especially in respect to things like DX mods. In point of fact,
> well-fitting plate is far less cumbersome than armour made of leather, or
> of mail. Don't even attempt to argue the point unless you have worn all 3
> extensively. I have. And at a thickness where leather acts like armour
> instead of clothing, plate weighs less.
>
> Also remember that Fiore di Liberi wrote around 1420 that he bemoaned
> armour good enough that the rich young men of his time didn't bother to
> learn to parry. They didn't have to. A sword wasn't going to cut into
> armour no matter how hard it hit.
>
> In his (and other) period manuals, combat was divided into 2 distinct
> categories: armoured and unarmoured. The unarmoured combat used a lot of
> cuts and was done at distance. Armoured combat used the weapons more like
> a pointed crowbar and bore much more resemblance to wrestling (though
> understand that that conept of wrestling involved breaking arms and such).
> I'm glossing over a lot, but you get the idea.
>
> For a modern perspective, go look at videso from the Battle of Nations or
> the Armored Combat League. Full speed, full power, steel weapons. And they
> aren't even close to killing each other. Yes, they don't allow the use of
> the point. Because that's how you defeat armour.
>
> For a reference, here is what I'd call well-fitting plate. This video is
> of Tobias Capwell (curator at the Wallace collection) wearing his kit made
> by Robert MacPhearson (probably the best modern armourer alive).
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNcKolKQ1F4
>
> It should also be noted that in that period, pollaxe combat was thought of
> as healthy exercise. Check out some of the exploits of one Jacques de
> Lalaing. Or read Jeu de la Hache. That's a manual for pollaxe combat. It
> very seldom uses the head of the axe, and does an awful lot of taking the
> other guy down.
>
> To reiterate, it's all game mechanics, so my criterion is whether it makes
> for a good game. Not necessarily a realistic game.
>
> Neil Gilmore
> raito@raito.com
>
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