Re: [Slope: Ch 12] New Type of Healing Spell & Death Magic.

Jeffrey,

I not going one way or the other on the spell, it isn't finalized. I am of the same opinion as you that you can't just go pouf your healed and send Grod back into the battle fully recovered.

At the same time I don't want TFT to become D & D with player basically immortal as long as they have a potion or wizard around.

Mortality in the game makes winning more fun for me at least. I would rather lose characters and be challenged then knowing I can always drink a potion or call on a helpful wizard. I do like Rick's treatment of healing potions that is take longer to recover and isn't immediate this makes more sense to me.

Edward Kroeten
Farmers Agent
7100 Stevenson Blvd Suite 105
Fremont, CA 94538

Office Phone 510-646-1500
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------ Original Message ------
Received: 11:56 AM PDT, 06/21/2018
From: Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com>
To: "tft@brainiac.com" <tft@brainiac.com>
Subject: Re: [Slope: Ch 12] New Type of Healing Spell & Death Magic.

That's true Edward, but you're not going to get that same effect with ANY pen and paper role-playing game, or any game for that matter. Even in playing a wargame, I can confront the same problems the generals actually did during the battle or campaign, but NOTHING is actually riding on my decisions, so at best it's a very pale imitation of the real thing. I get a mild sense of accomplishment when I win, and I usually learn a lesson or two when I lose, but nobody actually dies, my castle didn't fall, no ships actually sank, and if I'm playing Melee, no warrior actually bled out on the sand. I've been in combat, and actually been shot at, and let me tell you, there isn't a game in the world that makes you feel the way you did under those conditions. His blood ran cold? You betcha, and then some!

I understand your feelings about it, and indeed, even share them, but I still see no reason to require everyone else to play the same way I feel about it -- why not let the thing exist and see what it does before we condemn it out of hand? No one has actually played with this particular spell as yet, but everyone is passing judgment on it. I've played with healing spells before though (in Dark City Games microgames) and I never saw the exploits you people all seem to expect. Possibly because my players were more into the adventure than they were into min/maxing the game. So maybe, in the end, it's up to the GM to make it play the way he or she wants after all...

(BTW, depending on how the final spell in the game looks, I might very well nerf it so that it only converts wounds into fatigue damage -- because that just feels right to me -- plus, everything I've ever read in Fantasy and Science Fiction about "instant healing" almost ALWAYS required the patient to rest and recoup his/her energy after such an event, presumably because it was mostly their own internal strength, muscle and fat that were consumed to actually heal the victim.)

v/r

Jeff

From: Edward Kroeten <ekroeten@farmersagent.com>
To: tft@brainiac.com
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Slope: Ch 12] New Type of Healing Spell & Death Magic.

I think that's is what he is saying that he would house rule that out of existence.

One of the main reasons I liked TFT over D & D or any of the others was that you had a really good chance of dying in combat. This meant that tactics whether in combat or avoiding combat (blech chickens) were highly prized.

In D &D a character could just wade in and kill everyone without a worry. This didn't jibe with what I had read, one of the famous Heidelberg duelist wrote that even though he was a much better fencer than his opponent; once he took off his shirt for the duel his blood ran cold. He did successfully win the duel but it gave him pause every time he fought that his life could end with one sword thrust.

Edward Kroeten
Farmers Agent
7100 Stevenson Blvd Suite 105
Fremont, CA 94538

Office Phone 510-646-1500
Mobile Phone 510-579-0135
Fax 510-438-6875
Website: www.kroeteninsurance.com

------ Original Message ------
Received: 11:05 AM PDT, 06/21/2018
From: Jeffrey Vandine <jlv61560@yahoo.com>
To: "tft@brainiac.com" <tft@brainiac.com>
Subject: Re: [Slope: Ch 12] New Type of Healing Spell & Death Magic.

Different strokes for different folks.

But why is it so unacceptable to allow a healing spell to be created for the game by the designer (which, given SJ's reputation for carefully thinking his way through things, will be well-balanced in the context of the rest of the game) and then, if you feel so strongly about denying it to your players, simply saying that the spell doesn't exist in your world? You can have it your way, and other people can have it theirs. Rather than "policing" how other people play, why can't we just say; "Okay, no big deal, it doesn't work that way in my world because mana can't interact with living tissue in a non-confrontational way -- it can blow you up, but it can't put the pieces back together again."

As the GM, you can make your world any way you want, but why try to enforce YOUR rules on anyone else?

From: "raito@raito.com" <raito@raito.com>
To: tft@brainiac.com
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Slope: Ch 12] New Type of Healing Spell & Death Magic.

This is where we differ.

As I've said for years, if not decades, combat in TFT is deadly. It is not
D&D where combat is nearly trivial, as is death (in most campaigns). This
gives it a different flavor. So in the planning of an escapade, you need
to take that into account. If you don't, you fail. If the dice go against
you, you fail. If the results of combat can spoil your plans, then you
need plans with little combat.

Healing is hard and expensive (except the trivial sort provided by
Physickers). Resurrection nearly impossible. At least, that's how I prefer
it for my campaign.

I've had parties work very hard to be able to manufacture Healing so they
wouldn't have to heal up naturally. Only to find that once they'd done
that, it was much more profitable to do that and stay home rather than go
off adventuring. And because they were successful, adventures tended to
come to their door -- they didn't have to go looking.

Then again, I'm the type of GM who gives the rest of the world the same
advantages as the party. So being able to heal yourself instantly (or
near-instantly) doesn't give the party any advantage. Because the rest of
the world can do it, too. That's why one issue I don't get worked up over
is balance between the world and the party (between elements of the system
is a different matter).

Much more Nehwon than Middle-Earth.

Neil Gilmore
raito@raito.com

> I don't think its the issue of "delay of game" so much as it is the issue
> of having to take several weeks off in the middle of an adventure which
> totally destroys party momentum.
>
> Put another way, it's not like the PLAYERS have to sit around for five
> weeks healing, but the FIGURES sure do, and what does that do when you're
> on an "in-game" time limit of some kind (like, you have to do X before the
> next full moon -- oops, you missed it, too bad. Now the Dark Lord has all
> his powers back...)
>
> From: "raito@raito.com" <raito@raito.com>
> To: tft@brainiac.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 8:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Slope: Ch 12] New Type of Healing Spell & Death Magic.
>
> I find the issue of 'delay' amusing. The party says, 'we hole up for a
> few days', and it's done, module encounters rolls if they're where they'd
> have them. Is it really any different than doing job rolls? And of elapsed
> time is a factor in the campaign, have better plans.
>
> As for The Slope, I edited it out of my second message. I'm not on it, and
> my message bounced.
>
> Neil Gilmore
> raito@raito.com
>
>> It's true the SJ healing spell is dull: classic industrial magic. But
>> the
>> game isn't really about the healing process, it's meant to be about
>> adventuring. The purpose of the healing spell is to restore the party's
>> health so that they can go off and do something interesting, without the
>> need for a delay that will either be boring or skipped over. An even
>> more
>> powerful spell would do that more effectively. I hesitantly and
>> tentatively
>> favour that idea.
>>
>> Making the spell interesting in itself is laudable to some extent. It's
>> got
>> limited scope because the decision is basically just made by one person,
>> not the party cooperating, so it can't be fun for very many people at
>> once.
>>
>> But basically, wounds aren't fun. Make the battle about victory and
>> survival, and as long as everyone goes home to their family it doesn't
>> matter if they got chewed on a little. If the wounds don't matter then
>> battles can be made harder and nastier without worrying the party will
>> be
>> crippled. GMs who choose to have outdoor adventures with long delays
>> between battles are close to doing this already.
>>
>> Rick, maybe we should cut The Slope from this? Those players interested
>> in
>> these issues are probably signed up to brainiac anyway, or should be
>> encouraged to do so.
>>
>> --
>> David
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 at 09:37, Rick <rick_ww@lightspeed.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi David,
>>> The reasons below is why I wouldn’t use this spell in my campaign.
>>> I didn’t want healing magic in combat, but I wanted to speed up the
>>> out of adventure waiting around.
>>>
>>> > On Jun 19, 2018, at 7:55 PM, David Bofinger
>>> <bofinger.david@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > ...
>>> >
>>> > I think that might be a bad thing: if after healing everyone is OK
>>> except the healing wizard has distributed organ damage what does the
>>> party
>>> do? Wait around for him to get better despite everyone else being
>>> healthy
>>> already? Risk him being killed but try to protect him? Leave him behind
>>> in
>>> town? All are problematic. I suppose the best strategy might be to use
>>> healing to minimise the wounds of the most wounded character.
>>> >
>>> > David
>>>
>>> But given the fact that fast healing is being introduced into TFT, I
>>> was curious what a super powerful version of it would be.
>>>
>>> The original poster, Melichor, wanted to include a spell where
>>> healing cost the wizard damage and where there is randomness in
>>> the healing spells. When you have randomness, the spell has to
>>> be a bit better, because magic healing is a resource management
>>> game, and uncertainty makes it harder to manage your resources.
>>>
>>> It is not hard to make super powerful spells. The trick is to make
>>> them interesting. Steve Jackson’s fast healing with 3:1 fST to point
>>> healed ratio, is dull. After combat, the wizard and any apprentices
>>> wait, and soon the whole party is at full ST. No trade offs, no
>>> decisions.
>>>
>>> With my spell, after the fight the bowman has 3 points of damage.
>>> Do you, the wizard, take another hit, to heal him? This is a
>>> non-trivial
>>> decision. If you take a hit and then roll a 6 for healing, a bunch of
>>> points are ‘wasted’. If the bowman had 5 points of damage, ‘should
>>> we heal him’ is an easier question, but then the question arises,
>>> take one point of damage or two? Taking both at once gives a
>>> bonus to hits healed, but maybe one healing would be good
>>> enough, if you roll well. (Another tough decision.) If you heal for
>>> one
>>> damage, roll poorly, then heal again for one damage, and roll poorly,
>>> you will have buyers remorse, it would have been smarter to do both
>>> at once.
>>>
>>> My spell is very powerful, arguably too powerful, but it has draw
>>> backs that in many ways make Steves fast 3:1 healing spell more
>>> attractive. And if you prefer THAT spell to my Death Healing spell,
>>> it says something about what is in store for TFT with the new
>>> edition.
>>>
>>> Warm regards, Rick.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>
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