RE: (TFT) RE: Health Stat

["Gadda, Charles A" <charles.a.gadda@lmco.com>]

		My apologies - I didn't mean to be harsh! I'll try to watch
out for that!

Well, you were, but I was too mean in my reply as well.

		My point exactly! ALL statistics break down in the extremes!
Therefore the
		"Health" stat is never needed for 99% of the time - ST
covers it perfectly
		fine. 

		In the case of the extremes (mice do not contiually die of
bacteria either)
		you simply don't need a game mechanic for such
macro/microscopic parts of
		the game. A simple exception for these extremes seems far
more reasonable
		and realistic than changing every peasant villagers stats
just because
		elephants and mice exist! 

Yes, but this is PRECISELY the problem, and the reason why AD&D is such a
chore. Everything is all right to about level 5 or 6; after that, it starts
to go downhill. By about 10th level, it becomes very difficult indeed to
balance the campaign. Either its a cakewalk or you wipe out the party. While
the inherent good design of TFT tends to dampen that out to an extent, it
does not eliminate the problem. I would like to see a system that does
address these issues. It need not be precise or terribly detailed like
GURPS, but needs to abstractly deal with the problem better than is done in
TFT.

		This is the justification I hear most, but *everyone* seldom
gets sick. An
		"average" sickness is one one cold every two years. When you
modify this by
		environmental factors (what climate you live in, etc.) this
will come out
		to about average - on the scale of 3-18 that we're using,
remember that's a
		lot of people we're measuring so the statistics will
naturally be very
		rough with the low TFT numbers. 

Well, fact is due to my wife I DO get exposed to all sorts of things, and
yet do not get ill. That is why I brought it up. Were I not exposed as
often, I would go along with that. But as it is not true...

		Because statistically ONE incident of heart surgery doesn't
lower his
		"lifetime" average. He gets a cold every two years like
everyone else. But
		he can run 5 miles straight just about any day of the week.
Thus his
		"average" gives him ST 18.

True, but I have nevertheless seen people flunk fitness tests who were
physically very strong. Mind you, I don't consider them feeble, but there
was a clear difference in physique and stamina. I have seen this first hand.
What direct experience do you claim?

		Not all, because Olypmic sprinters have the Running/Olympic
Runner talents
		and Arnold doesnt. He'll still be at MA 10, while they are
at MA 16.
		They'll also have higher DX's that A.S. and therefore win
Initiative during
		the turns, giving them a head start in every turn of the
race. 

Disagree - while these folks are physically very fit, a fair number are
downright *emaciated* and yet are swift runners. But I sure wouldn't recruit
them to help move furniture. Again, this is something I have seen ***first
hand***

		Not at all. Quite simply Hobbits live in nice neat clean
little homes. They
		don't get sick from common colds because they are huddled in
their warm
		little house and not in a lot of dangerous, wet, clammy and
damp
		environments. "3/ST to resist colds, -2d6 if your wrapped in
a blanky by a
		fireplace drinking a hot cup of camomile tea and haven't
gone outdoors all
		winter!"

Whatever.

		Sorry, it's not my 'feelings', it's the words on ITL:35 -
WEIGHT OF
		CHARACTERS. "A *very rough* guide to the weight of many
one-hex creatures".
		Also, "For larger creatures....power-to-mass ratio goes down
with size".
		This is dealing with "weight". How far you can THROW
someone. 

Nevertheless, it IS the basis for weight and hence mass. Unless you state a
character is "extraordinarily skinny or fat" his weight will be ST squared
divided by 2. Thus, the higher the ST, the higher the weight (and, thus,
mass). Seems like a pretty clear and easy to understand relationship to me;
why should there be any problem...?

		This does NOT connect in any way to how hard it is to kill
someone with a
		weapon OR with a disease.

Horse hocky. It's a matter of documented medical fact that people who are
beefier have a better chance of surviving certain injuries. Given equal
mindset and injury, a larger person can sustain greater injury (to a degree)
then a 98# weakling. Ironically, even overweight, flabby people have
survived injuries entirely due to their bulk - the extra fat provides a
layer of additional protection to vital organs. Obviously, a greater amount
of hard, dense muscle provides even more protection. So mass is VERY
important. Even volume (as opposed to density) can be helpful (something I
allow for - one of the plus sides to being obese is that you have more hit
points then your ST would allow. Of course, there are some health drawbacks,
along with other difficulties). But being scrawny does put you at a
disadvantage when absorbing injury (though it may help dodge the blow in the
first place)

Taking it out a little further, are you trying to suggest that an African
Bull Elephant is easier to kill with a single sword hit then a house cat????
Now, that is truly weird. If you really believe that, I invite you to go to
the zoo and try to hack down one of their Elephants. I'll even loan you a
quality long sword. True, a well aimed shot to the jugular may earn you
elephant steaks. Anything less... well, it will be entertaining to watch the
spectacle for the few seconds it lasts!

An alternative test would be to take you and someone with a build opposite
yours (massive or skinny, depending on you) and plug each of you with my
1911A1, and see who is more seriously impaired. 3/IQ check to avoid taking
me up on this offer...

		In other words, ST affects the "MASS" of a figure - weight
plus density -
		not the "volume" of a figure. An ST 30 fighter (or wizard)
is NOT three
		times the size of an ST 10 figure. But he IS three times a
"thick" in how
		many sword blows it will take to wear them down to death. 

Weight + density = mass?????? Oh, ***REALLY****???? I'm sure physicists
worldwide would be amazed to learn that... ahhh, NOW I understand Michael's
viewpoint - he's from another Universe! In HIS universe, mass equals weight
plus density. Of course, as anyone who avoided flunking out of high school
physics knows, in THIS universe, mass is a quality of an object, and is a
product of density * volume. Density, of course, is a property of a
particular material or substance. Weight = mass * gravity constant (on Earth
that's 9.8 m/sec^2). Thus, A ST 30 fighter simply has greater DENSITY, not
necessarily VOLUME (though that is a slight possibility to a limited
degree), due to added muscle tissue (which, as a matter of proven medical
FACT, is more dense then most other tissue, especially fat). So he is in a
sense 3 times as thick when trying to cut him to pieces - specifically, all
of his musculature makes him hard to cut down.

		To my mind, you've only proven that the crux of the problem
is the
		misconception that ST equals larger body mass and therefore,
strong wizards
		are muscle-bound brutes, but to each his own.

Let's get something straight here: ST covers the amount of weight one can
lift and governs the types of weapons that may be used along with bare
handed damage. YES OR NO??? If ***yes***, then you've made a flat statement
that ST equals muscle mass. Period. End of discussion.

Because quite frankly it doesn't matter HOW "energetic" you are - mere
energy does not permit one to wield a two-handed sword one handed - I know
this from personal experience, since I've DRILLED with a two handed sword
before (not very well, as I'm a little under the physique required to use it
properly). Nor does mere energy explain doing some 3 dice or so damage with
one's fists. Training and physique do, but not stamina.

If one follows TFT rules strictly, then ST 30 means that be ye mighty
warrior or be ye 80 year old mage, you have a MASSIVE physique - none of
this "energetic old men" crap. UNLESS you put in a rule that prohibits the
mage from using his great strength in physique related matters (using Great
Swords one handed, bench pressing Cadillacs, etc.). But, of course, that
would be an added complexity, wouldn't it?

		What?!? Speaking of bizarre conclusions....there is not a
single thought
		discipline of any kind on earth that doesn't practice
extended breathing
		and some form of physical excercise and meditation. None.
Nada. Zip.
		Therefore you can really only conclude that you can't be a
wizard without
		good stamina....

You misinterpreted what I wrote. I never said what you implied, though I
concede that it could and should have been worded better. All I was saying
was that the thought disciplines focus on stamina building exercises, not
physique building exercises. Buddhist monks are indeed energetic and have
high stamina; I have yet to see one capable of competing for the Mr.
Universe title.

		HT adds a lot of complication and doesnt really seem to
solve anything but
		the misconception that you can't be skinny and have a high
ST. I don't
		really make ST rolls for mice and elephants.....it's just
not that
		important in a game to me....

Well, if its not that important, why do you always jump down my throat on my
/suggestions/? Its not like I'm forcing you at gunpoint to adopt them, you
know. In any case, its not that complicated.

Further, there is no misconception here - if one is skinny one will NOT have
a high ST. You may have a high HT (or "adjST", if you prefer) but that is
NOT the same thing.

To sum up: physique/hit points and health/stamina are two very different
things. They are related, and ***may*** even be equal, but many times are
not. In a small but significant number of cases (perhaps even ~ 25%) there
is a wide disparity between the two. Usually it will be in the form of a
higher HT then ST (the example of most modern people who undergo extensive
aerobic vs. body building exercises is the most common) but the reverse is
quite possible, if less common.

The physique side (in my HOME RULES, please note emphasis) ST covers raw
muscle power. And, since added muscle tissue translates to added mass, it
also dictates hit points. This is simply based on the following
observations:

- TFT does base weight (and thus mass) on ST. Says so in the rules. Which
makes perfect sense, even to Prootwaddles. A person who can bench 500# or so
is going to be a LOT bigger then a some scrawny runt who can't even bench
half his own body weight.

- The more massive a creature is (whether in terms of density or volume, or
both) the more damage it can sustain (excepting critical hits to vital
organs, etc.). Only someone who has never hunted would be silly enough to
argue otherwise. Anyone who is that silly is invited to go hunting for
Kodiak or Grizzly bears with a .22 rifle. You have one shot - I suggest you
make it count! I, on the other hand, will use a .50BMG - the difference will
be quite obvious to all but the astoundingly stupid.

- Of course, the more massive one's musculature, the greater raw strength
one has, in terms of punching damage, weapons allowed, and weight one can
carry. I would like to think that this last is quite obvious to all, even
those who hail from alternate Universes...

Health (which includes stamina) is different, it deals with enduring
fatigue, helps determine how fast you can run, and is important in figuring
out how fast you can recover from injury (healing rates, in other words).
This is based on the fact that many healthy people often do not have a
massive physique corresponding to their high stamina - they've built up
their aerobic capacity more fully than their physique.

Folks, does this make sense? ***Throw me friggen BONE here, people!*** Is
what I'm saying really all that hard to comprehend? To me its just simple,
undeniable, REALITY. Are there factual errors in what I have stated?

Now, this is separate from the issue of whether or not one wants to
INCORPORATE such rules into the game. While I don't see it as being nearly
so complicated as people seem to think (i.e. if you can figure out adjST,
this is not all that much harder) I can see folks NOT using it for a variety
of very good reasons. While it does not horribly alter the mechanics of game
play (just changes what you roll against and wound recovery, along with the
fatigue rules) it does take a little work to weave in. Note that contrary to
popular belief, it does NOT turn TFT into GURPS - the underlying mechanics
and principles of TFT are unchanged. Only the details have shifted slightly.
And as I've stated for about the billioneth time, this suggestion is geared
more for those who want to tie up loose ends and logic holes - if you think
its too much trouble, THEN DON'T USE IT! Simple solution to a non-existent
problem.

I swear if this sort of thing keeps up, I'm going to have to go around with
my mace and start ***beating*** this last concept into people's skulls...



"When Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset, people ***DIE***!!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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