Re: (TFT) RE: Armor of proof

[John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>]

--- Ty Beard <tbeard@tyler.net> wrote:
> Hi Rick,
> 
> > All weapons that do damage with deep penetration
> > can blast thru people missing anything important
> (it
> > is just a flesh wound!), or penetrate a relatively
> > short distance and hit something vital.
> >
> > How about mid technology pistols do something
> > like (2d-3) * 2 with armor protecting normally? 
> Higher
> > tech or bigger weapons could do things like
> (2d-3)*3
> > etc.
> 
> Are you saying that you should roll 2 dice, subtract
> 3, then triple the
> result? If so, this is an interesting solution. Did
> you use a multiple so
> that damage would be wildly variable?
> 
> If so, you could take it further by rolling 1d-1 and
> multiplying by 4 (or
> somesuch).
> 
> Or did you mean something else?
> 
> > I had heard of 'Armor of Proof' but I did not
> > realize that the proof mark was the mark the slug
> > left on the armor's finish.  (That is actually
> > pretty cool!)
> 
> I am concerned with concluding that armor would
> provide significant
> protection from muskets unless we can pin down the
> ranges that the tests
> were made. (Actual primary source combat accounts
> would be even better). The
> reason is that I would expect the velocity of a
> spherical projectile to
> attenuate much quicker than a conical projectile.
> Thus, penetration and
> damage should be much higher at point blank range
> than at say 150 yards.

I'm sorry I haven't been able to reply before now,
but, as usual, work interferes with my real life. ;-)
As far as documentation goes, I don't have any of my
historical books right now (too many books, not big
enough house) but Osprey makes a good book about the
English Civil War, and shows pictures of actual armor
of proof, including a brief description of how it was
tested. The way I heard of the method of testing was
from an armor expert that I interviewed for my school
paper, way back in my high school days. The local
museum (the Witte in San Antonio) had a large showing
of arms and armor through the ages, and had a armor
historian giving lectures while the exhibit was going
on. I had the opportunity to meet him after his
lecture, and was able to interview him, both about his
career and about the armor. He was the one who told me
about armor of proof, when I asked him how long did
"primitive" armor last after the introduction of
firearms. He told me the story of Armor of Proof, with
the description of its testing. I was as suprised as
you are, as (like most people) as soon as effective
firearms were deployed, the days of armor were
immediately over. He told me that to the contrary,
armor and firearms coexisted for centuries, and armor
only dropped out of favor when expense, weight
restrictions, and to some extent fashions changed. He
also told me up until the American Civil War, armor
good enough to stop bullets was readily available. It
was just too expensive for general issue, and too
heavy to march long distances in, so wasn't issued.

As far as bullets, up until the American Civil War,
both pistols and longarms used spherical bullets. The
Minie Ball, the first successful conical bullet,
wasn't invented until shortly before the war, so
muskets, rifles and pistols all used the same lead
ball. Indeed many frontiersmen had matching rifle and
pistols made, so that they would only have to carry
one bullet mold.

> > Basically my feeling is that the TFT death and
> > dying rules are so unrealistic, I don't feel that
> we
> > should weld a bunch of complicated or slow rules
> to
> > the system even if those rules are realistic. 
> Keep
> > the rules lightweight and fast, even if they are
> > fairly unrealistic.
> 
> In general I agree. I was proposing a rule that
> would make guns ferocious
> enough to be attractive to TFT players. Ignoring
> physical armor is a nice
> advantage that should do the trick. However, I would
> not want to propose a
> rule that would make them ahistorically effective.
> 
> --Ty

And most armor should be ignored by guns, indeed, with
armor like chainmail damage should be increased, as
links are driven into the wound track. But plate is a
different story. It's not fair to other types of
armor, and tends to throw PC's into a plate armor
buying frenzy, but it is historical, and if you want
to have anything approaching realism, it has to be
taken into consideration. 

I hope to be able to find the time to do a thorough
web search in the next few days, to find some sights
that can give you some independant confirmation of the
information I have given you. (Hopefully as soon as my
schedule clears.) 

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com

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